Anyone keeping up with the news has noticed that the voices on each side of the Muslim/non-Muslim debate over Islam have become more polarized in recent months. Especially in Europe:
Europe appears to be crossing an invisible line regarding its Muslim minorities: More people in the political mainstream are arguing that Islam cannot be reconciled with European values
[...]
“You saw what happened with the pope,” said Patrick Gonman, 43, the owner of Raga, a funky wine bar in central Antwerp, half an hour outside Brussels.
“He said Islam is an aggressive religion. And the next day they kill a nun somewhere and make his point.
“Rationality is gone.”
Gonman is hardly an extremist. In fact, he organized a protest last week in which 20 bars and restaurants closed on the night when a far-right party with an anti-Muslim message held a rally nearby
His worry is shared by centrists across Europe disturbed that any criticism of Islam or Muslim immigration provokes threats of violence.
[...]
Vlaams Belang, too, has suggested “repatriation” for immigrants who do not made greater efforts to integrate. The idea is unthinkable to mainstream leaders, but many Muslims still fear that the day - or at least a debate on the topic - may be one terroristic attack away.
“I think the time will come,” said Amir Shafe, 34, a Pakistani who earns a good living selling clothes at a market in Antwerp. He deplores terrorism and says he does not sense hostility in Belgium. But he said, “We are now thinking of going back to our country, before that time comes.
“For years, those who raised their voices were mostly on the far right. Now those normally seen as moderates - ordinary people as well as politicians - are asking whether once unquestioned values of tolerance and multiculturalism should have limits
[...]
So strong is the fear that Dutch values of tolerance are under siege that the government introduced a primer on those values last winter for prospective newcomers to Dutch life: a DVD briefly showing topless women and two men kissing. The film does not explicitly mention Muslims, but its target audience is as clear as its message: Embrace our culture or leave
I have often wondered why a person would want to migrate to a country that has values that are diametrically opposed to their own. I liken it to being offended by porn, yet going to live in a porn shop and complaining that you are offended.
If, on the other hand, a guest wanted to bring porn into your own home, you could refuse to let him bring it in, or he could leave.
In other words, I don’t think “embrace our culture or leave” is an unreasonable stance for any country to take. In fact, the underlying message in Saudi Arabia, for example, is already that: “Embrace our culture, or leave”
I have heard many (American) non-Muslims say that they would not want to live in a place like Amsterdam or
Brussels because those places are so morally depraved. So, therefore, they stay where they are.
It is not a good mix when you have people with diametrically opposing values in the same place. Usually, there will be some sort of clash (not necessarily violent) or vigorous debate, then one side or the other will leave once they see the tide has turned against them.
To illustrate the point, imagine this scenerio:
Imagine that a group of 500 openly homosexual men (many of them “flaming”) moved to a small conservative town in rural Mississippi or Alabama. Then imagine that more and more homosexuals followed them there over time.
How would the original inhabitants react? Would there be any clashes or vigorous debate? Would these people with such differing values be able to get along in perfect harmony? Would this be covered on CNN because of the clash or would it be a non-event because everyone would get along with no questions asked?
Would the homosexuals not live in close proximity to one another and set up their own section of town? Would that not polarize and partition the town? As more homosexuals moved in, would the original conservative families not begin to leave in droves for other communities that share their values?
Point is that sometimes you have to let people do their thing … someplace else. There is nothing wrong with loving one’s own culture and language. The problem is when you try to impose it on someone else in their own home or refuse to follow their rules.
If you know that someone is going to have porn playing in his house, don’t go to live with him…
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Filed under: Changing World
Two notes.
First of all, and I am going to write about this more later, Muslims in America are in a better position than the Muslims of Europe in my mind, because America is a nation where the majority have a respect for religion and where non-Muslims at least understand the language of faith. Europe has become staunchly secular and the state doesn’t think twice about stepping in and regulating religious practice, one more reason not to make reverse-hijrah.
The problem with Europe, when they say embrace our culture or leave, and I agree with you that it is somewhat reasonable, is that they are not having children, and they do not want to work, so they need their Muslim immigrants as long as they are pursuing their decedent lifestyles under their dysfunctional economies.
Secondly, you do not have to make a theoretical point about homosexuals; because they have set up such neighborhoods all over America in real life.
I think throughout history movements of people have happened. I view this to be another one, much for the reason that Umar mentioned. The majority of these nations are dying out, of their own accord.
These people originally invited in the workers from Muslim lands because they could not or did not want to do the work. The idea that they would just one day get up and go is crazy. Some of it is because of this, and also because of colonial history as in France and the UK.
France is one of the few European states that is not dying out because they offer enough financial incentives to the citizens to have children.
I have zero problem with Europe becoming Muslim, but I think some care should be taken to preserve European history and culture. Many of the greatests things this world has to offer comes from there (as well as the worst).
I wouldnt want to see places of culture and history destroyed by Taliban idiots. Places like the birthplace of Mozart should remain forever.
I have a real fear that many Muslim immigrants or Muslims period might not respect such things.
Salam alaikoum…
as a Muslim in Europe…yeah what Umar said. Pretty much spot on.
As an American convert Muslim living in Europe (Scandinavia), I have the unique position to see this from all different angles. The way I see it, this issue has alot to do with expectations. A Muslim living in Europe has to realize that they are living in a place that is not going to bend to their own culture, so they shouldnt come across as expecting that from the native inhabitants. On the other hand, the native Europeans should not expect the immigrants to embrace their culture either. They are after all, the biggest callers to diversity and multiculturalism.
I believe that the call made by many in Europe: embrace our culture or leave, is a false dilemma: It is not a complete embracing of their culture or a complete rejection of it. There is a middle path that many Muslims here take where they embrace the virtuous things (or at least those things that are not haram) and choose to leave those that go against their culture (or Deen).
I think that one of the reasons we have this problem now is because we have extremist from one side (the ultra national Europeans) that expect everyone to be the same no matter where they come from), and the extremists from among the Muslims who make all sorts of ridiculous demands (like removing pig figurines from the workplace).
Where I live, our problems havent reached this level however and the biggest problem we face is simple racism directed against somali immigrants regardless of their attachement to the Deen.
In Sweden, there are many who are attacking Islam because some of the Muslim youth are criminals and rapists. They seek to link their behaviour with Islam.
The morals of the Europeans hasnt changed much in say, 10 or 15 years, so the question that comes up is: why all of this now?
This all go back to the debate of Integration vs Assimilation.
Good post, and excellent points raised by the brothers above.
I agree… I think that we Muslims have to accept that we can’t have everything in the West our way, and those non-Muslims who aren’t okay with us need to realize that we aren’t going to abandon our religion and the values we hold dear.
We’ve got to strike a balance…
I think Muslims have a bigger problem than that. Europeans are traditionally a flighty bunch. The Germans are an excellent example. They went from “alle Menschen sind Bruder” to shoving people into ovens in less than a quarter century. Striking a balance is absolutely necessary, but the random attacks and violence have got to stop. If the Europeans feel they’ve been pushed “too far” (whatever that means to them), they will strike back, and it will be horrible. From the horrors of the 30 Years War to the terror of the French Revolution and up into the fascist movements that sparked WWII, the Europeans have a proven capacity for violence. If things continue on the track they’re on now, I can only see the current disagreement sparking into bloody conflict.
Abu Sinan, that is an excellent point. I too have lived in europe and would hate to see Arabists, etc destroy its cultural heritage.
Brian-“alle Menschen sind Bruder” (All peoples are brothers)
I dont think it would be accurate to describe pre-WW2 Germany in such a way. The Germans, like most Europeans I think, are xenophobic to a certain extent, putting people in gas chambers is another thing.
Here is an interview with Bassam Tibi, a Syrian-born German political scientist (now a professor in the US), who most Muslims would see as a secular Muslim (or not even a Muslim at all). He is an advocate of outright secular reform in Islam. But note his words:
“SPIEGEL: But what is astounding is that you see yourself also as an example of failed integration. You have been working for 30 years at a German university, you have written 26 books in German and have been awarded the Federal Cross of Merit. Why, out of anyone, are you not integrated?
Tibi: It’s more to do with a feeling of belonging. In Germany it is not a contradiction to say, Mr. Tibi is Syrian and has a German passport. In France however it is. And in America it would be a reason to take someone to court, as you are excluding them from American society. Even after 40 years here, I’m still not German. I also believe that I have not progressed higher as a professor here because I am a foreigner. When I retire I will be leaving Germany and going to Cornell university.
SPIEGEL: That sounds quite sad. What should Germany do?
Tibi: We need to see a change in culture among Germans too. We must change this idea that only those who are born here and have ethnically German parents, are seen as German. Almost 20 percent of the people living in Germany today have a foreign background. The problem is that Germany can’t really offer foreigners an identity because the Germans hardly have a national identity themselves. That is certainly a result of Auschwitz. America’s strength is that it is capable of accepting people into its communities.”
Problem is that German IS an ethnicity and Arab/Syrian IS an ethnicity. American is NOT an ethnicity and this makes it easier for others to fit in…at least than in Europe and the “Old World”
[...] While some voice it moderately, the far right even goes to the extent of saying “Embrace our culture or leave”. Tariq Nelson doesn’t find “embrace our culture or leave” stance unreasonable. I have often wondered why a person would want to migrate to a country that has values that are diametrically opposed to their own. I liken it to being offended by porn, yet going to live in a porn shop and complaining that you are offended. [...]