Institutionalized Piety
This was a very interesting post over at SAFspace on where ‘institutionalized piety’ (as Hood brilliantly termed it) can lead:
I recall shopping one day in Taiba Mall (which lies just outside the gates of the Prophet’s Mosque) when I happened upon a rather strange spectacle. A woman was sprawled on the floor, another woman was sitting silently beside her, and two men were staring at them over the top of the shop’s counter. I came closer and the men gestured to me wildly. As I approached, I noticed that the woman was sweating and grimacing, clearly in much pain. She had apparently fallen down – it seemed as if she’d suffered a heart attack – and the other woman accompanying her was slight and much younger and could not lift this overweight and sick old woman off the floor. I rushed forward, dropped my ice cream into the hands of one of the gaping men, and helped the woman off the floor and into a chair in the mall. Do you want to go to the hospital, I asked. No, she did not. Unable to do more and not having the language skills to engage the two women further, I left them and retrieved my purchases from the store. The men were still standing there motionless, too noble to muddy their hands with the filthiness that is Woman [More...]
Hood responded, and I tend to agree with him:
Those men were probably scared to death to approach out of fear of reprimand from not just other men, but the woman herself and other women. Once I was in a grocery store and a woman slipped on some water. A tall well-built man caught her (probably saving her from injury) and she proceeded to curse him with all sorts of bad words and hit him with her purse.
For what? for grabbing her arm and pulling her up so that she wouldn’t fall
The man then spent nearly the next two hours clearing his name with the management, the police, and every other self-righteous nosey person that came along so the issue is a societal one, not that men here see women as ‘filth’ [More...]
Once, I was in an office building about to walk out when a lady mail carrier came in and fainted. I caught her before she fell and carried her to lay down while some other people called for help. Afterwards, I remember telling one of my friends about this, and he joked (while kinda not joking) ‘you better be glad some of the brothers didn’t see you’.
Going to extremes in this can lead to dysfunction and abnormal behavior. It will cause men to act in ways they normally would not act. This is the “Culture of Denial and Pretense” and it is verily a dangerous culture … indeed.
This culture has led to there being such a premium on virginity for a bride that a divorced or widowed woman stands little chance of getting married …which in turn led to outrageously high doweries…which in turn led to less men being able to get married…which in turn led to repressive behavior … which in turn led to Muslim countries leading in porn searches. Men who otherwise had little to no interest in porn, become closet porn addicts in this culture of denial and pretense.
This behavior has carried over to converts who have adopted this culture because they think it is piety. Some sisters ask why don’t men give the ’salaam’ to them. In many cases, it is because they are afraid to.
For example, a brother once gave a sister the ’salaam’ at the masjid as he was passing by going to his car. Little did he know that this sister was offended and told her husband who in turn boycotted this brother for months.
It also leads to one extreme or the other type of thinking: “This man is calling for orgies in the streets!!!!!!!! … Verily it is a calamity!!! Indeed!”
A man can’t suggest women be able to attend functions or get an education without the conversation automatically jumping to talk of fornication and sex in the streets
Anyone that would have come to the defense the man Hood was talking about would have been accused of being the equivalent of a ‘whore-monger’
Don’t believe me? Go to a masjid that bans women and suggest that women be allowed to attend.
Verily
Filed under: The Culture of Denial and Pretense
I think that is one side of the coin and shows that being too rigid can cause problems and we know in the KSA a lot of men like little boys or go to Morocco for the weekend and such. However, in the West we see the danger of going too far the other way, so in reality what is needed is balance.
On a side note; Syria is not that strict but I know a brother who told me that in Syria Muslim men will sneak into hospital to get a glimpse at women while they are having birth because that is their only chance at getting to see some and when I told a brother that I don’t know why anyone would find a woman giving birth attractive he mocked me.
As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,
One note regarding giving salaams: most scholars regard it as prohibited for men to give salaams to women outside of their families and vice versa. I know it’s common practice on message boards and the like, but I never do it when I am face to face with a woman - it’s always good morning, evening etc.
The thing that sometimes annoys me is that some brothers take offence to what is considered perfectly innocent contact between other men and their wives. For example, I once had a Somali lady friend (much older than me) who was hard-up financially and had got the phone company to set her calls to incoming only. She needed to contact a particular female friend, and so when I happened to call her, she told me to ask her friend to call her. When I did, I got the friend on the end of the line, passed on the message and put the phone down. Done deal, or so I thought until the husband did a caller trace (1471), called me back and demanded that I never call his wife again. He would not hear any explanation, and told his wife to stop talking to the Somali lady. I’m not sure if that’s normal in Algeria, where that man comes from, but it certainly isn’t here.
Another Algerian I once knew actually refused to give a blind man a lift back from a dhikr meeting on the outskirts of London, in the very late evening, on the grounds that he wanted to be alone with his wife. I have no idea why he thought that man (and I) were any threat to his wife given that we had met before and he had given lifts before when he was with the wife, but I’m sure most men would not want it on their conscience that a friend had been killed by a psycho on the tube train because he had refused them a lift.
Umar,
Verily that is disgusting and is far from befitting. It is indeed a calamitous calamity which has befallen our beloved ummah.
I once saw a story on the news that depressed me to no end. It was Eid a few years ago and in Indonesia (or Malaysia?) the Muslims were on their way to celebrate. They had to board ferries, but the ferries were overloaded with people and it began to sink. Sadly, several Muslim women died because they did not know how to swim, and the Muslim men did not want to touch them. So the men were in the lifeboats, and several women died.
What if a brother needed “mouth to mouth resuscitation” and I was the only one around who could save him?
Sad thing is, even if I were to give a sister “mouth to mouth resuscitation”, I would probably still be defamed.
I’m trying not to lol and wake up the baby…shhh
I am accident prone. Dh is absent-minded. What a couple we make. He once drove off while I was outside of the car putting the baby in the car seat. I started screaming as he dragged me out the parking lot. What was the first thing my loving husband inquired about, you say? “Why are you screaming? Do you hear any other women’s voices in public?” I knew then, why some people think muslim women are oppressed.
In defence of our Saudi brothers. Dh and I were walking with the kids one day. They were in front of me and I was walking (about 10 steps…lol) behind. Next thing you know, I was airbound and landed on the ground (my nephew said all you could hear was me screaming ahhhhhh…thud). My dh immediately ran over to me to insure that I was properly covered. The Imaam of our Masjid and some other brothers were sitting in front of his house and ‘heard’ the commotion. They stood up, peeked over, ask dh if I needed to go to the hospital (that’s when it occured to dh to ask if I was ok…he was still making sure my socks were pulled all the way up since my shoes flew off). I told dh I was okay and said alhamduillah for niqab. They asked again, he assured them I was ok. He informed me I was never allowed to carry the baby cuz i’m too clumsy, I was like cool.
As Salaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatahu
Yusuf Smith, which scholars consider it prohibited to give salaams to the opposite gender but ok to have idle chit chat (how are you? good morning)? Certainly not ‘MOST’ scholars hold this opinion. Why is it ok to ask them how they are doing and wish them a good morning, but haram to give them their rights (salaams)? If anything it would be the opposite. If you call a brothers home and the wife answers, which is more appropriate, “As Salaamu Alaykum Sister, may I speak to brother Fulan” Or “what’s up sis, how are the little ones? O yeah…he’s teething…masha’Allah that’s so cute…who does he look like? Abu Fulan! My man! cuz you know that hadeeth…”
I did some daleel, cuz verily, this indeed can not be saheeh wa Allahu Alim.
I think it has evolved to represent what is common in the culture. Not necessarily something that came out of a ruling. Although I’m sure if you search the web long enough, you can find an opinion on anything. Correct or not. So a scholar’s opinion is still not ‘daleel’ - even though they use selected evidences to attempt to back up whatever it is they’re saying.
As Tariq may or may not have said here, these days (in America) you can hardly give the salaams to sisters just because of their husbands. In most cases (even I) avoid giving the salaams, not because I think it’s haram - but because I don’t want to have to argue with a brother for an hour explaining that I wasn’t about to have sex with his wife in the parking lot.
Verily, it is a bunch of B.S.
In both Puritan and Victorian England, the culture was one of repressed sexuality, and that led to secret debauchery and scandal over the most innocent of things. The men of any sexually repressed society will act thus, while the women are made to suffer for it also.
Assalamu alikeum
[Rashad: As Tariq may or may not have said here, these days (in America) you can hardly give the salaams to sisters just because of their husbands. In most cases (even I) avoid giving the salaams, not because I think it’s haram - but because I don’t want to have to argue with a brother for an hour explaining that I wasn’t about to have sex with his wife in the parking lot.]
I guess that might explain why brothers never return my salams- although i’ve kinda given up on saying salams to brothers now cos getting blanked by someone in public is highly embrassing. I thought it was the poliet muslim thing to do and greet my bretherns on the road, but no more.
Um Adam, Ill remain silent but I can picture that scene vividly in my mind with your DH.
LOL ok what is up with the “Verily”? You guys are killing me softly with this. lol
You got me saying it when I come across the fatwa patrol…
I must say I don’t agree with them (some scholars) saying men can only give salams to men. This isn’t even Quranic, ill logical and even the ayats would contradic this practice. Even when the Prophet (PBUH) ask for the people to give bayat in support of him he didn’t ask the men to give the bayat on behalf ofthe women. The women had to come and make the bayat (vote) of support on thier own. We are suppose to stay away from views the go against the literal commands of ayats (givings Salams to believers) and the Spirit of Quran.
These same men while at work will say hello with a bright smile on their faces for Sussie but can’t wish peace on thier sister in faith?
Retarded.
I didn’t take Shahada at 16 all to just throw commen sence and logic at the window. I could have converted to radical Christian right.
You guys are joking, but you don’t know just how real some of you guys sound. A lot of people and families were ruined over brothers and sisters trying to “free themselves from hizbiyyah”. After realizing that I had lost over a decade of my life in ‘the minhaj’ and that it was nothing but smoke and mirrors I fell into depression for months and now I’m trying to put the pieces back together. It’s not funny from this side.
Hijabisoverrated:
I’ve tried to explain to brothers and sisters in logical conversations how we have taken on a “group think” behavior and because of the sheer volume of websites and (Arabic and translated) books now available, we sort of have a tendency to speak in very lofty and pompous ways. Fusha English. Along with that, some have allowed their natural, comfortable personalities to be replaced by a common (fill in your particular group, movement,etc.)________ personality.
Umm Adam thought I was referring to Salafis - I was referring to all of us -Salafis, sufis, traditionalists, modernists, madhhabis - Laa Madhhabis - Tablighis, Asharis, Maturidis, etc, etc…we all have succomb to the “group think, act, speak” to an extent.
So since trying to intelligently point this out to those who don’t see a problem rarely goes over well - I just like to show just how ridiculous we sound when we take ourselves too seriously.
btw Ashamed - Someone (a while ago on this blog assumed your name was “A.S. Hamed” - he couldn’t relate to why you call yourself “ashamed”. I clearly understand why. But his presumption was so funny that I had to run with it.
Salam alaikoum…
I get both ends of the drama with the salam crisis…i give salams to a brother, and I want his body or something…i don’t give salams and i am accused of being unfriendly…as a general rule I either don’t give salams or I whisper.
Also I have to represent for Algerians here after I read Brother Yusuf’s comment. I do agree that I have known a couple of Algerian brothers weird like that, but also some from other parts of the world. Not to justify anyone acting crazy, but in the part of Algeria where my husband is from, it isn’t a macho thing or a don’t talk to my wife thing, talking to someone of the opposite sex is considered just bad manners. I never heard religion used as a justification, they don’t even make it a religion thing, they just go on about being polite and manners and such. Ahhh Algerians. So special.