The New ‘Passing’
Check all emotional baggage at the door before proceeding to read, because this is going to be a little controversial.
I was having a conversation with a Black American convert recently about the state of Black America, the racism of the Muslim world and where black American converts fit in this complicated mix.
During the conversation, I mentioned to him that as a black person rises in educational attainment and/or Socioeconomic Status (SES), they become more likely to marry outside of their race. With each level of rising SES, the number of black/non-black couples increase.
To illustrate this, at the highest income level ($100,000 and above) there are nearly as many black/non-black couples as there are black/black couples. (86,443 both-black couples vs 75,410 mixed race couples). On educational attainment, couples with graduate or professional degrees were again almost even, with 160,367 black/black couples vs 146,763 black/non-black couples (More information on this can be found at here) One also has to wonder how many of those high SES black/black couples include high-yellow (’Yella’)or redbone wives
Keeping those stats in mind, I stated my belief that America is moving away from a white/non-white dichotomy toward a black/non-black dichotomy. This means that it will be good to be anything but black in America. Once a black moves up the social ladder, he has the option to marry someone that is not black and give his/her children or grandchildren - depending on their appearance - the increasing chance to ‘opt out’ of being black.
Memphis’ dark skinned mayor recently alluded to this as well by implying that Harold Ford, Jr’s Senate run would not be possible if he were dark skinned. Harold Ford began moving into the ‘non-black’ category with his announcement that his grandmother was white.
So if most of the grandchildren of the Tiger Woods’, Harold Fords, Derek Jeters, Soledad O’briens and other talented individuals (that are not necessarily famous) opt into the non-black category, the perception of what is ‘black’ (i.e., the poorer darker skinned masses) will likely be defined down to be significantly worse than it is today.
After hearing all of this, the brother said something that he probably already felt anyway. “That (opting out of blackness) may not be such a bad idea”
I suppose it could be called a new passing. This passing is not into whiteness, but into “non-blackness”.
According to this article between 35,000 and 50,000 young adults every year, who previously were identified by their parents as Black, switch to identifying themselves publicly as White or Hispanic. That sounds like a large number, but I can believe that many young adults - many for the good reason that they are racially mixed - have moved away from identifying themselves as solely black to being “other”. The “new passing” is not that drastic.
I am not addressing this from the aspect of a person identifying racially/ethnically the way he or she chooses. People should be able to self-identify their ethnicity. What I am talking about is individuals intentionally choosing to move themselves and their offspring away from being black in order to protect themselves (and their offspring) from racism and at the same time afford themselves more opportunities. Especially in the Muslim world where this is often magnified.
In the Muslim world, as many reading this know, lightening up the family (if one is able) is considered to be just good common sense, as I know that dark skinned (read: black) Palestinians, for example, often want to marry someone as white as possible in order to lighten up the family. (Once sufficiently light enough, they can then begin marrying their cousins)
A friend of mine currently living in Saudi Arabia - also a convert - mentioned that it is common for black Americans to claim and/or magnify any mixed-race heritage they may have in order to fit in with Saudis who otherwise would not sit with “zanooj”. He mentioned that light skinned black Americans have been known to outright claim to be Native Americans.
One of my current neighbors, who is a convert, very light-skinned, and of clear mixed background, told me that he did that himself when he was living there. He is married to an Arab, and his daughter looks like any Arab girl and because of that will probably not have much of a problem getting married.
So if you are a black convert and want to live in a Gulf country, then it is suggested - ala Harold Ford, Jr - that you play up your non-black background. So talk about that Irish great grand father or that Native American great-grandmother prominently. And if you are light enough - or you are “racially ambiguous” - then just be quiet.
By adopting this methodolgoy, a black convert’s kids would (potentially) not have to go through being that odd black kid at the masjid with no real friends and teased for being black. If they are light skinned and racially ambiguous enough, they could simply blend in with the other Muslim kids and, as a result, grow up less race conscious in their early years than a black “monoracial” child would.
Those of you that are black converts with young mixed-race children (or light skinned children) probably know that had your children been darker with kinkier hair, they would likely be much more racially conscious now.
To illustrate this, I am reminded of a fight between a 5 year old Syrian child and a 5 year old black American child that ensued after the Syrian child called the black child “the son of a black woman” (translation = “son of a bitch” but they mean it as much worse). This Syrian child during that fight called out racial epithets that would make one think that he was raised by David Duke.
A 5 year old mixed-race child normally would not have to face that kind of crap at such an early age and as a result would not be as racially conscious as a 5 year old black “monoracial” child.
To add to that, let me put it this way: If a four or five year old little girl (yes 4 or years old!) will call a grown man an “abd” (”slave”) what do you think they will call their peers? (I got a million racist Arab child stories, so don’t get me started)
Then in the ensuing outrage at the parents (who can blame the children?) at such things and suggestions that something be done about it, the typical response is “there is no racism in Islam” or “what problem?” or “you blacks complain too much”
So faced with these stark realities, and no signs that racism will be acknowledged - much less anything done about it - should a black convert person go ahead and lighten up the family (by marrying a good person that is not black) to allow their potential offspring to begin the move into the non-black category? This while also teaching their children that racism is wrong, and never look down on another human being, but because there are many that do, you must protect yourself.
Should a black convert couple encourage their child to marry a good person that is not black so as to fit in better in the world? Especially the Muslim world.
For many the answer is already a resounding ‘yes’
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Suggested Reading: Who Is White?: Latinos, Asians, and the New Black/Nonblack Divide
Filed under: Black American Muslims, Changing World, Children's Issues, Convert Issues, Race
So, doesnt that just let the racist win. Just throw you hands up and say I give up, being Black is horrible and I will do what ever I can to not be. Anyway its already been done for generations and as you said being done now, nothings changed except that non-black and blacks associate more so the opportunity for intermarriage has increased.
I think with Muslims you have the two camps. The ones who once muslim take on the whole self hatred baggage of immigrant Muslims and want to completely distance themselves from being Black and the ones who love Islam because of it liberation theology and whole heartedly embrace their Africaness and identify with the African Muslim heritage. Unfortunately I think the latter group is shrinking.
As I’ve matured I’ve come to not have a problem with people deciding to identify as they wish but it does seem to be an afront to the ideals of Islam if you make a conscious decision that you do not want to be Black and decided to marry because of that. Instead of marrying someone who is compatible, good deen etc no matter the race. And marriages like that have problems because usually the kids grow up with a complex if the self hatred is palpable where the child may completely immerse themselves in the black community to the chagrin of the parents. Also the non-black spouse may end up being racist and take it out on the child who is more obviously black which is common in Arab/latin culture.
I should add that the last case is common in African American culture too (light sibling favored over dark sibling)
wow! Deep post Tariq.
Negative stereotypes based on skin colour are so depressing moreso given that the Muslim world seems to be worse affected by this problem than Western Europe/Americas.
A friend of mine - a black brother - said that when he used to ride the bus in a certain Arab muslim country school kids would keep asking him what the time was. He figured out later that they kept on saying this to him so that he would look down at his hand - his skin colour and see how black his skin was!
Um Abdillah:
The question is that if people - particularly Muslims - are going to continue to deny the very existence of racism can you blame a person for wanting to shield his/her offspring from such treatment?
With the perferring of lighter children, incidentally I see that it is a dark skinned parent that will treat the light skinned one better. Light skinned mothers tend to go out of their way to treat the dark one better
As for giving up the fight against racism, one can look at it as if it is trying to fight a flood with a bucket.
Secondly, as I stated, as black people (Muslims and non-Muslims) make opportunities for themselves with higher SES and education they and their children will opt out of blackness anyway. They will just not announce it to the world.
Black Muslim women will always have the option to marry lazy freeloading, uneducated Black men that can come live in their homes and be students of knowledge
This is deep. I was about to be offended until I realized that I did it myself
So how is that different from Muslims who try to pass as non-Muslims (Muhammad becomes Mo, Samir to Sam), I’ve actually had students tell me that some of their Muslim classmates try to identify as Christian.
I’m just not clear as to your point. If you are saying that mixed race or whatever blacks should not be forced to identify as Black than I agree. But to promote marrying white to pass just doesnt sit right with me. Granted I know this is what happenes all over the world, sometimes it seems that African Americans are the only ones against it.
I guess if you are upper class mostly like you will marry someone of a different race or a woman will end up marying down just because the numbers. I mean I was really surprised that there were so few Blacks couples making over 100K. I think going to the college in Atlanta gave me a false sense of the income levels of blacks since it seems almost all of my old classmates are all professionals (docs, lawyers and engineers), I just thought the numbers would be higher.
Kashif, you’re right, it is a deep post and it’s one that is taboo so I’m happy that brother Tariq had enough courage to talk about it.
Personally, I see it less of a “racial” thing and more of a “color of skin” thing. You will find that most ethnicities have that problem. I’m Pakistani and I can tell you for a certainty that fairer skin is favored over darker skin and it’s easier for lighter skinned women to get married. I haven’t been to Pakistan in over 25 years but when I was there I remember all of the servants were dark skinned men.
Even in East Asia, you fill find women using skin lighteners and creams to lighten their skin. I’ve always found that ridiculous because most are ghostly white to begin with. Take for example the Geisha women of Japan. As light as they are, they paint their face white to make themselves even whiter.
I also read Memphis’ Mayor Herenton’s quote and I have to agree with him. If Harold Ford, Jr had darker skin and had a wider nose, he would NOT be as popular as he is today.
Um Abdullah, I don’t see it as “giving up”, I just see it doing what you need to do to get by.
So how is that different from Muslims who try to pass as non-Muslims (Muhammad becomes Mo, Samir to Sam), I’ve actually had students tell me that some of their Muslim classmates try to identify as Christian
The difference is that one is a lie (trying to come off as non-Muslim when one is Muslim) and the other is magnifying something that is actually there. The more the generations pass, the less black they will be. I don’t see a lie in that. That is unless they completely deny that they have any African ancestry. They are not doing that so much as magnifying the non-black blood
I’m not promoting anything. I am just stating what many have actually thought (and sometimes said to me in private) but may not have said (publicly) in their choices in getting married. People naturally want the best for their children and no one wants their children to have to face such racism at such an early age. This is why - especially in the Muslim world - they are ‘passing’. It is also a way to be a “real Muslim”
Tariq, you know if my wife read this - she’d give you a resounding ‘hmpf!’
That aside - there are a lot of factors and emotions that gets mixed into this topic. My perspective is a bit different than most of the people I blog with and even run into at the masjid here where I am. Limiting the discussion with the racial dynanics internal to Muslim communities - I actually have begun to remove my children from most immigrant settings.
I grew up in the W.D. community and subsequently moved away from that community because of a need to gain a better understanding of Islam and provide my wife and children a more solid foundation of knowledge. But as a Muslim youth growing up in that community - there was never a discrepancy in my Islamic identity and my african american identity. I was both and proud of it. Period. I (nor the community itself) ever entertained the idea of adopting characteristcs of other races and cultures for whatever reason. No ones children ever felt like outsiders. There was never the looming threat of a racial epithet laced tirade. No one walked around on egg shells hoping that their children wouldn’t be called a slave or nigger on ‘Eid. We were raised as fully actualized human beings, equal before Allah except with regards to taqwa. THEN…
I moved to more immigrant based communities (you know, to get on the sunnah and the haqq and the manhaj blah blah) then all of a sudden…I became aware of the second class citizenship status of black people in these communities. Not all of course, but the element is present in most all immigrant based comminities. The list of contributing factors is too long to go into but I did make a joke to Tariq once that based on the way these immigrant communties half-heartedly make overtures to African Americans - I bet there are some African Americans who really believe that if they do make it to Jannah, they will have to sit in the back with headphones on…waiting for the translation.
Now all of a sudden I’m worried for my wife. I’m worried for my kids and the affect psychologically this would have on them over time. I want them to grow up confidently Muslim and African American like I did. I do not want them viewing their skin or background with disdain because they have taken on this attitude via osmosis in the immigrant communities. So…
Despite my misgivings and disagreements on some issues (and the fact that I’m a free agent now and pop in and out to pray where ever) I have conciously started to incorporate my kids into the local W.D. community to avoid the psychological russian roulette that I would have to deal with at other places. Then Insha Allah when they are older, they than have a solid enough background to make their own choices regarding community. And…I expose them to the immigrant communties also. They go to an Islamic school where there is a healthy mix. But at the end of the day, I want them to be comfortable with who they are.
the problem is that the Islamic schools are 90% immigrant run and grounded in their culture
Yeah - you’re right about that. Problem #2 is where I live they’re the only shop in town. The Clara Muhammad school here in Memphis closed a few years ago due to (gasp!)…lack of support.
And it is those things that I have to take part of the blame for. I was one who left that community, withdrew my support and beraded them as loud as I could for being deviants and this and that. If I knew then what I know now…
In all honesty, and I hope I don’t come across as racist, but I would be disappointed if my bi-racial sons wanted to marry an AA or dark skinned woman. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with AA women, some of my best friends are AA (LOL, how many times have you heard that), but I prefer that my kid’s offspring be light-skinned as myself.
You do come across as racist and that is just the attitude that I’m pulling my children away from. I prefer my kids marry for taqwa.
Bro. Rashad I completely agree with you. As I get older I start having more and more respect for Imam WD Muhammad and what he has accomplished in America, when you really reflect on it, its truly phenominal that there are communities with third and fourth generation indiginous Muslims here in America. He has a lot of wisdom that I really didn’t understand when I was younger. Its one of the reasons why I sometimes want to move back to Atlanta because I don’t want my kids growing feeling like second class citizens because of their skin color or ethnicity. I have plenty of immigrant or second generation friends but with most there is just something missing. It feels weird being in a room when everyone breaks into urdu, this happens even with American born desi Muslims. But that being said I do not want to segregate my children like some in WD community do. There has to be a balance. I guess ultimately it starts at home. instilling a stront Islamic identity and making sure they are not ashamed of their background.
Rashad,
I must apologize for coming across that way because I’m really not like that at all. I was trying to be honest about what I want my grandkids to look like since I won’t be producing anymore kids (Allah knows best) of my own.
For parents, isn’t it in our nature for our kids and their offspring to be a reflection of us and what we look like. If I have blue eyes and blonde hair, I would want those characteristics passed down the line because I when I see that child, in essence, I will see a reflection of myself. That’s all I was trying to say.
Of course, I want my kids to marry for taqwa, that goes without being said.
Again, my sincere apologies for those who I have offended.
Shama
Umm Abdullah:
I think that the stench of racism (as shown in that post above) is what produces the almost other extreme of, as you put it, segregation in the W.D. community. It is a reaction to what is found in many immigrant communities here and in Muslim countries all over the world. To be honest, I do not blame them at all and I completely understand. Again, refer to -
“but I would be disappointed if my bi-racial sons wanted to marry an AA or dark skinned woman. ”
- and I would and am probably going to those same lengths to protect my kids from this pitiful and quite franky “superior’ attitude. Man, look - lets be real. I tell my kids ( MY AFRICAN AMERICAN KIDS) to make sure that in school they are the best. No matter what. Those fair skinned Arabs and others can giggle and “feel” superior all they want - come report card time - you’ll be at the top. Come Qur’an recitation time - you’ll be the best. Come flag football time - kick butt. I keep my kids reading 2 grades up because of the attitude (sigh - as shown above) that has Arab kids (and others) resting on their laurals thinking that all they have to do is be lightskinned and arab and they automatically are the best. BS. If you’re going to feel superior - at least DO something superior first. If not, get out of the way and give the 1st place trophy to my kids.
Shama Noor:
No, when you make the statement:
“but I would be disappointed if my bi-racial sons wanted to marry an AA or dark skinned woman. ”
It does NOT go without saying that you want you kids to marry for taqwa. Furthermore, as Muslims, despite our nature, if Allah has told us what is important, then this stuff about wanting your off-spring to have your characteristics and blue eyes and crap is tossed. Allah has told us what’s important. The only reflection of myself- and I’m going to say it - W’ALLAH - that I dream of my progeny having is Islam. If my grand-kids all look like my wife’s family and they’re Muslim - Allahu Akbar. Hopefully, that’s what my legacy to my dhurriyah is. That’s what I stay up and worry and pray about. Something as insignficant as their eye color never crossed my mind.
It’s interesting that you have raised this issue Tariq, because here in the UK amongst the African Caribbean Reverts (i.e Black British as we like to describe ourselves), it is an unspoken taboo. Many brothers and sisters have this obsession for marrying partners from Morocco or Pakistan. The main reason that I encounter is atttraction. It may also be that subconsciously we want to ‘improve’ our standing amongst the wider community. One thing for sure is that relative to the wider black community (which is mostly West African) our children are markedly ‘lighter’. I have a strange feeling that in years to come these ‘lighter’ offspring will do what many East African Muslims - Somalians, some Kenyans ,northern Sudanese and Ethiopians-have done (in Africa and to a lesser extent the Uk) by emphatically distinguishing themselves as not being ‘black’ and being superior to ‘blacks’.
It is always something I’ve found strange and I found myself asking ‘Why in the ‘dunya’ are AC reverts happy to marry ‘their own’ and in the deen we are more open minded to different nationalities’? To be honest, on my part as a brother (unmarried) it has been due to selection and probability. In the dunya I could select/choose the type of partner I liked and the pool was a lot larger amongst Black sisters. Once I entered the deen, the pool of available Black sisters who I’m attracted to is smaller and I am not as independant in my selection i.e. generally I can only take what I’m given.Therefore, the easiest thing to do is to seek a Pakistani or Moroccan sister that way there is a much greater probability of me getting ‘what I want’.
Brother Rasahd,
If you knew me, it WOULD go without saying that I want my kids to marry for taqwa. You act as if you have me figured out from one statement that I made. You know nothing about me, my friends, my kids, my community or my life.
Masha Allah, I am happy to see that you are so on your deen that you never think about wordly and insignificant things such as hair and eye color. One day I wish to achieve that level of piety. But for now, I will be real and tell it like it is.
Your SISTER in Islam,
Shama
No I do not know you. I only know what you blog. However, you were crystal clear in your statement.
I’m concerned for my kids and insha Allah whatever comes after because I do not have the luxury of coming from a Muslim culture to fall back on. It has nothing to do with ‘being on my deen’. Nice try but my concern as one who’s family (except for my father) is all christian is that my kids do not get lost in a sea of kufr because that’s what my family for the most part is deep in. Why should I worry about eye color and hair? I have bigger fish to fry man. Do not try to drag me to the other extreme by implying that because I’m sooooo righteous, I cannot possibly be concerned with worldy affairs. My point about physical characteristics being desired in off-spring in context with the discussion was clear.
Tariq…no you did not go there! I read your post with this uncomfortable laugh and twitch…like I had the disease…what’s it called? Really, I don’t know what to say. Honestly, in my case things just happened like this. I had no intention to marry a white man…never thought of it…still in shock! All my life I pictured myself having little chocolate babies (don’t ask me how cuz I’m the darkest person on both sides of my family and I pass the brown paper bag test). After starting to practice Islam, the pictures were more like the ‘Chillies’ (TLC) and ‘Tatiana Ali types…dark with ‘good hair’. Cuz you know I got Indian in my family…lol. Plus, I just figured I’d marry an Arab or a fine Black Man.
So yeah, I got kids that can pass for er’thing but black, in this part of the world. Now if we were in America things would be different, cuz you can’t fool black people the same way…we can spot our people no matter how much they think they passing. I don’t try to pass my kids off as anything here, how can I? However, for some strange reason, the people overlook the fact that I am black. My husband’s boss actually told my husband (after he told him he was married to a black woman), that I wasn’t black…I was wheat. I said, how does he know what I am. Then I found out his wife goes to my tafeeth school! In America, I was always the girl that the Arab women would approach to marry a relative. At first I was flattered until I realized that it was to a. bring them over from their country and b. cuz I was not ‘that black’.
You said:So faced with these stark realities, and no signs that racism will be acknowledged - much less anything done about it - should a black convert person go ahead and lighten up the family (by marrying a good person that is not black) to allow their potential offspring to begin the move into the non-black category?
I think that it is highly circumstantial. I’m glad that you mentioned that the person should be ‘good’. That should always be the priority. Islam keeps it real. Our Prophet (salla allahu alahi wa salam) informed us that there are 4 reasons people generally get married. Your scenario may fit the profile, if that is what is important to that person. I often wonder who my children will marry. After looking for piety and good character, I have some other factors that are important. Color was never a factor, nationality is. It would be nice if they could marry Saudis, if Allah allows us to live our lives here. Not just any Saudis mind you. I wish my dh had more contact with the Ulema and other pious and knowledgeable families, because I would have him use his ‘complexion for the connection’ to get my children some good spouses, insha’Allah. Not saying that our Ulema would be impressed with his whiteness, they insha’Allah are far above that.
Umm Abdullah said:
I guess if you are upper class mostly like you will marry someone of a different race or a woman will end up marrying down just because the numbers. I mean I was really surprised that there were so few Blacks couples making over 100K. I think going to the college in Atlanta gave me a false sense of the income levels of blacks since it seems almost all of my old classmates are all professionals (docs, lawyers and engineers), I just thought the numbers would be higher.
Spelman? Clark? Freak Nic? lol!What year?
Yeah, those were your classmates who prolly left Atlanta. Atlanta is the black peoples ‘Mecca’. It is a melting pot of different SES blacks. You have your welfare chasers and you have your elite. The sad reality is that if black women of a higher SES insist on marrying only black men, then the majority of those who do, will marry down. I see this in our own Muslim communities and it hurts me. But you know what, some of them are loyal for dumb reasons. I know Muslim women who admit that they just need to have a man with a lil thug in them. I had a friend who was always joking about a Muslim Woo Tang…funny but not so when you see the end results.
I just asked my 6 year old ‘passing’ daughter to be honest with me, what color does she want her husband to be?
She first gave me her pc answer, “really it doesn’t matter what color he is as long as he is Muslim”. I kept a poker face so she wouldn’t think her answer was right or wrong. Then she continued, “Actually, I want to marry a white man” Looking at me with a half smile, to see my reaction. I said in a matter of fact tone, that’s alright, your father is white. She went on laughing saying, “and I want my kids to be white…all of them, so that they all look alike.” So I laughed with her and said, so you don’t want your children to be black? She said, “yeah they can be black, but if I have black kids, I want them to all be black so that they look alike.”
This actually made sense to me. It reminded me of an incident that happened today. I was walking pass a white American woman’s house, that I haven’t seen in almost two years. I decided to be neighborly and ranged her bell to see how she was doing. She made such a big fuss over my baby and my oldest daughter, she was nice to my “Halle Berry’ complexion daughter, but she did not comment on her looks at all. She kept playing in the baby and the big girls hair (and they all have the same exact hair but my oldest is a shade lighter) and telling my big girl while rubbing her face how pretty she was. She would say how cute the baby was but nothing about my other daughter. Masha’Allah, la hawla wa la qawatta illah billah.
My big girl was loving it as she craves attention (which I hate because I always thought ‘pretty girls’ were easy cuz all u have to do is tell them how pretty they are and I seek refuge in Allah from my children being like this), but children are smart and she must have picked up on the difference of the treatment…prompting her saying that she wants all her children to look a like (this is just one example…ppl are always saying ohhh Saudah wa Adam same same Baba…Ramlah same same you…even though my two ‘white’ babies look nothing like their father and take after my family and my lil honey color baby looks like her father spit her out with some coffee and cream).
And furthermore…
How am I supposed to take it? When you basically have said to me - your “brother” in Islam - “Your African American daughter is not good enough for my sons” and “Your African American wife is obviously less than me”
Then because you follow that up with an apology about offending anyone, I’m supposed to just say,”oh , well yeah ok - cool”.
This is the reality of the “community” that I now dread.
Rashad if you thought that was offensive you ain’t seen nothing
Yeah tell me about it. That’s why you’ll find my kids with the “deviants” in the WD community. I have no tolerance for centuries deep, implicitly approved religious racism.
Rashad and Um Abdullah
Imam WD Mohammed’s community is not the one that is segregated. It is the immigrant communiteis that are segregated from the rest of America. Let’s stop using the immigrant communities as the gold standard
Just a reminder:
Check all emotional baggage at the door before proceeding to read, because this is going to be a little controversial.
I agree 100% with Wali.
And so no one gets the wrong idea, in general I’m not advocating seperating into ethnic communites. That’s not Islam either. but take a step back and look at the overall development of African American (adult and youth) that are under the umbrella of an immigrant communty. look at the psycholgical toll it has taken on several brothers, sisters, and kids. Tariq has already posted many discussions on this topic. Years of not being good enough, not being Muslim enough, not being light-enough, not uderstanding the Imam’s language. Being left out of pockets of foreign language conversations, not having a say in the direction of the discussions or the overall direction of the masjid…it finally takes its toll.
I’m sorry, but letting your kids sit with ‘clear’ deviants, so that they do not feel racially inferior, is a no go. There are plenty, Ahlus Sunnah, African American communities that would be better for them to be with. I understand your frustration, but your kids can not live in a little black bubble always. They will eventually have to go out in this big bad racist world anyway. We only get one chance to raise them correctly, I would not let my animosity for racist or anything else be my reason for allowing my children to endoctrinated in deviant teachings.
All this praise for Wrong Direction and his stankin community, just cuz they black and have an Afrocentric focus. Isn’t that reason enough to stay far away from them?
Just pray you and your loved ones don’t die and they are the only ones left to bury you. They have jacked up many of a ‘janaza’ if that’s what you can call it, in my family. I have a deathly ill father who he and his family are still loyal to this man, and I have been trying to get him to come live with me for years. His family keeps saying he is to sick yadda yadda. I know! That’s why I want him here…I would rather he die here after what they did at my cousins so clled janaza!!!!!!!!!GRRRRRRR GRRRRRRRRRR GRRRRRRRR
Ok, I use the word “deviants” in MOCKING reference to those who look down to them without good reason. They have issues, just like every other community but I stick to what I said. I’m sorry but I ain’t in Saudi.
In retrospect, I have far more respect for what they went through to raise families in this country successfully than worrying about their adherence to what the Saudi ‘ulama claim is the true islam.
Years of not being good enough, not being Muslim enough, not being light-enough, not uderstanding the Imam’s language. Being left out of pockets of foreign language conversations, not having a say in the direction of the discussions or the overall direction of the masjid…it finally takes its toll
This is the point and it causes many black converts to want to fit in by any means necessary (as Londoner also stated)
What is so criminal about what Shama said? it is personal preference
Tariq, you are not getting away with starting this mess and expect us not to want to know your take on this. What gives? Did you marry a ‘good’ non black to lighten up your family? Do you want your kids to eventually ‘white wash’ you out of the family.
And one more thing, for those considering this… Genes aint no joke…a few generations from now that mandingo blood could kick in.
Just a reminder (wink to Umm Adam):
Then in the ensuing outrage at the parents (who can blame the children?) at such things and suggestions that something be done about it, the typical response is “there is no racism in Islam” or “what problem?” or “you blacks complain too much”
Seriously though Umm Adam - (and yes, Verily it’s all Tariq’s fault)
I have not widthdrawn my family from the immigrant community. I’ve expanded the communities that I expose them to to include the WD community. I was too concerned with being on the manhaj before but now my perspective has changed.
My kids still go to immigrant masjids (as well as the school). The foundation of their Islamic knowledge is spread out. But as some of us are reluctant to admit, there is that element that they will always be missing out on. That’s why I make it a point to go see my brothers and sisters with the WD crowd. I love them. I grew up with them. I want my kids to have what I had.
I don’t think anything was wrong with what Shama said. Tariq put it out there, I’m assuming he wanted honest answers. She gave an honest answer.
My husband has an all white daughter. He never says anything to make her seem superior than his mixed kids because truth be told I think they all white to him…lol! Anyway, I’m glad he has an all white daughter who will give him perhaps all white grandchildren. If he had more money and I were stronger in my faith and wasn’t so selfish and demanding of my time, I would want him to have a white wife so they could have more white babies. I can’t exactly explain my reasons. He never ever indicates that he is unhappy or uncomfortable with me or misses being around white people, but I have always wanted for others what I want for myself and sense I know how much I miss ‘my people’ than I know he must miss his even if he doesn’t mention it.
Not to mention, Shama says she has biracial sons. She did not say what mix they are, but if its black in there than maybe she realises the edge her sons have and do not want them to go (close your eyes sensitive viewers) ‘backwards’. Maybe she is black and knows the struggle. Or maybe her husband is black (could be one of the bruthas who opted out) and she doesn’t want the kids to go throw what she sees him going throw. Who knows…just trying to give a sista some excuses. Either way it goes, it’s her prerogative
Londoner,
I think that the term “partner” for a husband or wife is something that contradicts the principles of Islam as this was a term invented to eliminate the differences between husband and wife and gay and straight.
AS far as passing goes, your average African-American brothers “on the sunnah” ends up being little more than the Arabs bi*** and why anyone would want to pass for being an Arab or South Asian is beyond me as I can hardly think of two more failed cultures in the modern world and at least African-Americans have the coolness thing going for them and are the image of global coolness (which the black British, who tend to be square try and imitate).
I think it’s time for a little poetry to lighten the mood.
Kill my landlord……lol just kidding
The Choice Is Yours By Kevin Powell
no Black self-love
no Black-on-Black love
no Black-on-Black love
no Black relationships
no Black relationships
no Black family
no Black family
no Black community
no Black community
no Black spirituality
no Black spirituality
no Black consciousness
no Black consciousness
no Black ownership
no Black ownership
no Black power
no Black power
no Black possibilities
no Black possibilities
no Black people
no Black people
no Black future—
******************************
Why white people (Umar Lee) always got summin to say bout our situations?
Anyway…..wait…hubby just came home gotta go! Be back later.
Jazakellah Khair Sister UMM ADAM for your comments. As I tried to explain to the brother before, he knows nothing about me and my family and I don’t feel I need to defend myself any further especially after I politely apologized for offending him or anyone else for that matter.
He doesn’t know if I’m an immigrant or a convert or what race I am. My name doesn’t tell a darn thing about me. But since the brother was on a roll, I let him do his thing. I’m not going to sit here and debate with him for being open and honest about how I feel.
Umm Adam:
When I got married, I must admit that at that time when thinking deep down there was a desire to ‘authenticate’ myself within the larger community, but no desire to ‘whitewash’ the family.
In the masjid I attended most often (in my former town and the town Rashad still lives in) the classes and the khutbah were in Arabic and the english speakers were relegated to the back of the masjid (LITERALLY) to listen to a translation.
So the converts were second class citizens and this partially drove my desire to learn Arabic. Once I started becoming fluent, I got to move to the front of the masjid.
So when I got married, I was looking for someone with the language. This would also - my thinking at the time - help my future family’s integration into the Muslim community. Sounds naive I know, but that is how I looked at it at the time.
I’m burying the hatchet…Shama Noor. I never claimed to know anything about you. I commented on your comment. Not you as a person (whom I do not know). Just like others comment on my comments. That’s all we are seeing of each other on this blog is our comments.
I guess I didn’t leave my emotions at the door. (Bad, BAAAAD TSRP)
Sorry but I feel that Umer you went below the belt there. That was uncalled for matey. Cor blimey. (That’s cockney by the way which black british tend NOT to speak)
As for the term partner, like any term we use unless it has been copyrighted we shouldn’t necessarily allow ourselves to stoop to distorted constructions of a term outside its original meaning esp when that new construction is the EXCEPTION not the RULE. Viewing things through the prism of Islam, I only mean partner to mean a male-female marriage. Have husna dhan of my intentions akh.
‘At least African-Americans have the coolness thing going for them and are the image of global coolness (which the black British, who tend to be square try and imitate)’
As I advised Tariq a few weeks ago, a 1 week trip to London inc. flight ticket, hotel, and travel expenses shouldn’t be more than $600-800. If u’ve already been to the Uk then, come with the intention this time to challenge your pre existing viewpoints about London. I strongly feel that many of your observations about the UK on your blog are exaggerated, sweeping and plain inaccurate. Wouldn’t it be wiser to come to the UK, meet and see some bros here and the communities here instead of making judgements based on media reports.
I don’t wanna enter into a slanging match cos I reckon U’d win any day and we’re Muslims so it’s haram BUT what you said about Black Brits imitating the US isn’t accurate. Most youngsters from all communities inc. Asians (Desis not Orientals here), Somalis and White kids try to imitate Jamaicans. In the Uk, Jamaicans, NOT African Americans are seen as the epitome of cool. That’s why Ali G (who is quite big in the States) doesn’t have a fake Yankee accent, he has a poor wanna be jamaican accent. AAs are seen as cool for definite but no more so than ACs, the ultimate ‘bad men’ (OGs) are ‘Jamaican Yardies’. Allah masta’an.
I actully have a balling family out there in the US and even with their dough, they wanna (but can’t afford an equivalent UK home which would be approximately $6-800,000 here) come to the Uk bad, why? because they accept that pound for pound the UK is a better place to be at.
Umer, keep doing you’re thing Akh, i really love you for the sake of Allah and like your blog a hell of alot. Just give us Brits less of a hard time.
TSRP, was that a public tawbah? Verily, your bayaan has rectified and clarified your position on the status of our sister, indeed. Takbeer! (thought I’d add that, since you love the WD community so much)
Shama Noor, hmmm name sounds Indo-Pak, or African, or Sufi. Your use of the word ‘darn’ indicates that you could be white or under the influence of. “I let him do his thing”,almost nabbed you for one of us..but I could be wrong. If you had said ‘thang’ that would have sealed it. So we still don’t know a darn thing about you [sunnah smile see molars]
Tariq, what was naive about that? Doesn’t it help? I think having bilinguel children is a great way to integrate into the Muslim community, without the colorism.
I just thought Ali G was speaking bad/broken exaggerated hip hop English. That’s supposed to be a Jamaican accent?? lol
(pssst!- ya’ll know he’s a jew right? - just tossing a conspiracy out there)
Lol@Umm Adam.
They do “Takbeer” a lot
Sister Umm Adam you are too darn funny.
I guess I’ll just keep ya guessin’.
Londner, thanks for the words, but I have been to London btw,.
Umm Adam
What I meant was that I was naive in trying to be Arab-centric and tried to Arabize myself instead of working to make the community more open to all ethnicities. There was a near apartied system in the masjid
Of course the benefit was that I learned Arabic and my children speak the language, alhamdulillah
I remember when the foreign wive thing started and brothers started trashing black sisters and brotehrs were indirectly presurred to divorce their black wives for an exotic foreign one. Tariq you are really bringing some points home bro
How did AA Muslims reach a point that they felt like they had to “pass” into another ethnicity? This takes the cake
Why is Wali such a popular name with the WD Community?
[...] Tariq Nelson has opened a big ole can of worms on his blog. This discussion led to some praise of the community of WD Muhammad (son of Elijah Poole founder of The Nation of Islam). [...]
Ashamed, I just mentioned that very thing to Tariq. There was definitely a thing going around to make brothers who had AA wives and had children seem less than the ideal ‘Islamic Family’.
And that’s the atmosphere that Tariq is describing when he came around. I read above (I forget who said it) that outside of Islam the options for finding AA mates were more open. Meaning, there were a lot of fish in the sea. But after coming into Islam and finding a different racial make-up, it becomes more difficult. And let’s be real…brothers (and sisters) are and were looking for (ahem) companionship which adds more pressure to find someone without the luxury of waiting around to find the perfect cultural match.
Tariq,
Akhi you got alot of comments in the short time you posted this. MashAllah.
Rashad,
On the flip side of the WD community, when I came into Islam, I was treated much the same way that AA muslims are treated at the immigrant mosques. It only lightened up (no pun intended) when some of the people at the masjid found out that I was’nt the son of a white lady married to a Syrian who was trying to have an “experience”. Still after this, for more that 2 years people would walk away from me when I gave them Salam, pull their children away from me like i was diseased, and quiz me on the devilish nature of the whiteman. I mean, thats better than everyone thinking youre the popo, but its still not right.
But with all this, I still love them, because many of the brothers were positive role models for me. They were independent businessmen, educators, Imams, etc.
I remember meeting Imam Yahya of Dallas, and knowing after that, that Arabic is not sole property of the Arabic ethnicity.
And they had a certain ‘izzah to their Islam that I didn’t find in most Muslims. With them you can be a Muslim and a productive member of American society.
The problem I saw with many of their children was that they did have a “Muslim” identity, but it never really differed from the one that the immigrant kids had (i.e. as for Islam, not race & nationality)
In the end of the day they were doing much of the same dirt as everyone else.
And that “Proud Blackman” attitude that was so strong in the community held it back to some extent, because if you weren’t quoting the “Imam” then you had no real knowledge, and so positive influences in the community were lost as far a Islamic education.
All in All, the model that Imam WD set was a much more viable one for americans in a civic sense, but with lack of religious knoweldge the fabric of the community stays harder and harder to weave and mend.
His (WD) own children and grandchildren don’t have Islamic Identities. I think the families cursed personally (The seeds of Elijah).
Did the children have Muslim mothers? Do you think because he was so active and probably didnt spend time with them that thats why they dont have a strong identity. I mean are they Muslim and are just not dressing obviously Muslim. Thats common across communities. Or did they formally leave Islam?
I don’t see what is so controversial about what Tariq is saying. Given the selection of choosing a partner is, in Islam, a rational process rather than simply a matter of the heart (i.e. falling in love), some people may choose wives or husbands such that it gives any prospective children the best opportunity in life. Unfortunately, racism is a fact of life and, in some societies, it can have a crippling effect on a person and severely limit their opportunities in life. Therefore, I don’t think it’s right to impugn someone that wants to “lighten up” their kids or, as might be the case in another society, “darken them up” as a race traitor or whatever. In many cases, I would imagine, they are motivated by pragmatism and realism rather than some sort of self-loathing or insecurity about their own colour.
I thought as much that Umer had already been to London thats why I said:
‘If u’ve already been to the UK then, come with the intention THIS TIME to challenge your pre existing viewpoints about London’ (see above).
N.B. That’s a bit ignorant of me though, London is NOT the UK, it’s just one city
I do feel though that there are some areas many AAs and ACs revert adherents of the Sunnah can learn a thing or two from the WD/NOI re: attitudes to civic participation, manners and moderated self love etc.
Nevertheless, I genuinely feel that this example is available to us if we inculcate a broad view of the seerah of the anbiya (peace and blessings be upon them all) and superimpose their example into our current reality taking into account our fabric, culture and collective psychology. The Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “Allah has not sent down any disease but He has also sent down a cure for it.” The cure is there we just need to rack our brains to find the halal medicine.
Amir makes a good point about ‘darkening up” your kids. Which is exactly why some white brothers choose to marry AA sisters and Latinas. I remember Umar had something on his blog about this awhile back.
I think Tariq touched a nerve with this one, actually for once I have to side with “TheSaveRashadProject”. Having children of a mixed cultural background (AA and White) and living a Latino Country (California) and sending my kids to an Islamic (Immigrant) School has definately put a strain on my children. I will say this in general out of all “races” AA are most accepting of outsiders, my son or daughter can go into any African American community Muslim or non-Muslim and be given the same love as any other AA kids, however when it comes to the immigrant, white, or latino communities there is always a stigma attached to thier ethnicity to one degree or another. Immigrants and Latinos (notice I didn’t include latinos with immigrants) want to claim them for themselves because they can fit in which to me is equally as offensive I don’t want my kids Arabized or Latinocized thank you very much. And whites out here generally look down their noses at everyone outside of their socio-economic status. I had the whole WD discussion with Tariq some months back, stating I have never been a harsh critic of his community and remember often times stating that we needed to engage his community but it was something people were not ready for at that time. If you contribute to a community they are more likely to hear where you are coming from and listen to you rather than being a critic from the outside doing nothing. “People don’t care how much you know, until they know how much you care”. When it comes to providing for the social needs of African American Muslims there is not a community out there that can compete with the WD community. This is not to condone any practices that contradict the sunnah rather it is a humilating fact for those to claim to be adhering to the way of the Salaf. I understand Rashad’s point fully as a parent you are going to raise your children in a healthy atmosphere where they recieve love and a strong sense of belonging. In terms of Tariq’s point on AA lightening up, I think the feeling of wanting to protect your children from harm is a natural one. However that being stated I also know that a certain amount of hardship is good for your children it teaches them to be resiliant in the face of adversity. Now I may not be able to speak on the African American experience as one annonymous coward so boldly pointed out on another post, however I can speak from the perspective of a White Muslim who from the point of view of the majority of White America is a traitor at worst or confused at best…
Kinda depressing post but Alhamdu Lillah for the Qiyaama when all scores will be settled…
Until then we must keep our heads up and be secure in ourselves knowing that our value lies in our souls, true iman and out love for humanity and what we can do to better the human condition…
Assalamu alaikum, as a white person, who is totally blind, I wasn’t raised with the “color / race-conscienceness, that so many have. So for me this whole “color” thing is just so abstract to me! I want to say “what is the big deal”. But I understand what you are saying, but it is on such an abstract level, because I can’t see it! Does that make any sense? I guess coming from a white person, this might sound pretentious! But I don’t know how else to explain it. If Allah wills to give me my sight back, then one of the first things I want to learn about is “color”. I want to know what the big deal is! Is “black” really thta ugly, methinks not! Ugh, I want to say “sighted people”, and say it in that snide, snooty way, like “what’s wrong with you guys”, but there are also blind people who are racists too, I’d imagine though I’m not one of them. If anything blindness has made me more “open-minded” I guess you could say.
Rasheed you make some good points but at the end of the day, like Ginny says, it is easy for a white to say all that. Being black is crap in the Muslim world
Assalamu alaikum, could the racism in the Muslim world be the reason why African Muslims are looked down upon? Note an article I posted on my blog, where a Senegalese Muslim said that they have their own masjids so they don’t get any trouble from the Arab Muslims? Probably so.
Regarding my issues with color, well, it’s a hard one becuase I really don’t understand, I mean, as I said, I understand, but I don’t, because color is something that I’ve never seen and can’t identify with. But I’m somehow not allowed to say that because I’m white. Making that statement somehow gets construed as ignoring the problem of racism and prejudice, which I can assure you I fully know exists! But I just can’t understnad why. I’m tempted to say how close-minded and smple that sighted people are, but that would be just as wrong as stereotyping all white people as bieng racists or whatever. (you know I actually heard a blind person use the term “sighty” a la “whitey”, to describe a sighted person, and I laughed so hard, though sometimes I jokingly use that term myslef). As a blind person, there are times when I want to condemn all sighted people as being ignorant about blind people, etc. And I’ve often seen / found similarities between how racism plays itself out and how the dynamics between blind and sighted, or disalbed / nondisabled people. Not sure if this makes any sense and quite possibly, this is another blog post in the making.
Notice the trend in some of the ayaat, most of mankind reflect not, most of mankind do not believe, most of mandkind are not gratefull…
The point being here is we should not think too highly of mankind to be able to conquer these deep seated issues because most will not…
The peace comes in accepting that most of mankind will kick you in your teeth for doing the right thing and that you will have to endure patiently until you stand in front of your lord.
Rasheed,
If we gathered a person of every race, and asked them how they’ve been treated by the community of another. Then presented the results without mention of ethinicity, I am sure that we would find the results strikingly similar if not the same.
Yusuf,
“being Black is crap in the Muslim world”
Why is that?
Because we think that the Muslim world consists of the Gulf, egypt, and pakistan.
Why doesnt Black Africa come to mind when we say “Muslim World”
When we say scholar why don’t we think of any that are there?
If you are black, and go to Black Africa, you are sure to have an easier time than I would. And that was the advice of my African friends when I wanted to visit there during the summer. All of them told me to hire a body guard if I travel alone. Why? Because people don’t like whitey in West/central Africa, and they will call you names, taunt you in public, and possibly attack you (i have never been, this is what my African friends tell me)
A Blackamerican friend of mine told me has no problem, as he puts it he has the “complexion for the connection”
Things are relative.
Why doesn’t Black Africa come to mind when mentioning the Muslim world?
B/c we have allowed ourselves to become preconditioned to the concept of what a “real” Muslim is.
True, white Muslims have a whole nother set of problems. The Muslim world likes white when it is time to marry for themselves (but not their daughters…unless they are divorced or jinn possessed), or they respect them in a secular sense, or they use them to validate Islam, but they really ain’t down with them otherwise. It’s all superficial.
Salam alaikum to all, as an east african woman living in the UK i have encountered racism from my own people when i wanted to marry an african-caribbean man. This man had everything going for him in terms of deen and education and i thought it would impress my parents. But i was foolish. One if their reasons was that they viewed him more “african2 than themselves ie kinky hair and wider nose. Its true everyone wants to get away from being black. Arabs and asians wouldnt want to marry east africans because they are darker, east africans disply this nonsense to west africans and other black people. So many times have i hear pakistanis say they wouldnt marry bengalis because they are draker and so on. Its a culture we need to get rid off. Beauty is defined through skin colour.
In the UK almost every successful black man is amrried to a white woman due to upward mobility and acceptance. Now too many dumb african carribean brothers are doing the same. As a black woman we should be creating a strong black household where our children can be proud of their ancestors and not going off to marry in morroco or pakistan. If we keep on the black race will die in Europe.
[...] The New ‘Passing’ - Tariq Nelson “Once a black moves up the social ladder, he has the option to marry someone that is not black and give his/her children or grandchildren - depending on their appearance - the increasing chance to ‘opt out’ of being black…” (tags: black africanamerican mixedrace passing) [...]
i want to say something but i think i shouldnt
i dont know
man
…… maybe later
Wow, lots of interesting stuff on an interesting topic. It isnt some blacks that want to “whiten” up the gene pool, Arabs love that too.
Being a white guy married to an Arab woman I found that first we gained a level of acceptance in the Arab community that would not have been there were I black. I also found that the comments about our children almost always went back to looks, skin colour, hair colour and the like.
All of the Arabs think it is so great that we have “white” babies, light skin, hair, coloured eyes. For me it never mattered really.
I find the racism in the Muslim community just outrageous. It is more than a bit hypocritical when you consider many Arabs I know are much darker than the average African American community anyway.
As to the UK/London thing, I never got the impression that Brits of African background tried to be white. I guess it depends on where you go in the UK.
I lived outside of London for several years. Umar needs to take a weekend off and head to Brixton and see what he thinks of black Brits then. It might change his opinion.
Why is maintaining racial purity such an admirable or even important objective?
And, as an aside, would this statement be equally acceptable:
Black men and Asian women are known for marrying whites when given the opportunity. Everyone has a choice.
Hood
African Americans are derided as “obrunis” when they visit West Africa. Plus, there is nothing in Sub-saharan Africa but chaos and poverty. They want to leave too
Ed,
There has been a lot of good going on in sub-Saharan Africa in the last 50 years, most of those who leave desire and many actually do return home. Chaos and poverty is all unfortunate outsiders too busy with their blinders and Tarzan and Zulu movies can see.
“Kinda depressing post but Alhamdu Lillah for the Qiyaama when all scores will be settled…”
Yeah that sums up how I feel. I really had to examine myself to see if I play up my “otherness”. I don’t think that I do but now I’ll be uber-aware of it. I just pray that I will be married for reason such as piety and compatibility as opposed to any thing as superficial as skin color.
ma’a salaamah
Well Amir the issue is not about race but instilling prideness in black people who subconciously think that marrying a non black person is upward mobility. As a black person we have to do something about it which is marrying a black person to create a black family( which is rare in the UK). Martin Luther King and Malcolm X didnt marry white women and fight racism at the same way. They acted according to their era. Many black people want to fit in and will look into ways of maximising that. There isnt a strong black community with deep culture and roots for black young people to look up to, a home with 2 black parents can provide that however.
Leila are you saying that black men have some duty to marry black women? Because of the struggles of MLK and Malcolm we have the freedom to marry who we love regardless of race
No i am not saying you have some duty to marry black women only, people are attracted to other races as well and that is understandable. However as the article indicates you are more likely to marry a non black as you move up the social ladder. Upward mobility for some means marrying lighter skinned person etc. Example is that a black sudanese would want to marry a half arab and half sudanese person. The mixed race sudanese would want to marry a full blooded arab. An arab man’s desire is blue-eyed blonde woman. Many sudanese feel embarrased about Alek Wek. Racism or prejudices is well and alive. I see it important raising children that believe black is beautiful and having a black husband does help. It would be helpful as well that black brothers do marry from their own race to create a good, strong minded black individuals and not run off to Morocco or Pakistan to marry a woman he hardly has anything in common with.
Leila I looked at a pic of Alek Wek and I don’t find her attractive at all and I’m black. Am I racist?
LOL KID PASTA, YOU CRACK ME UP. I DIDNT ASK WHETHER SHE IS ATTRACTIVE OR NOT. BUT THAT SOME SUDANESE WANT TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES AWAY FROM HER BECAUSE SHE IS “DARKER” THAN THEM, HAS A KINKY HAIR, A WIDER NOSE. Its racial prejudice whether she is a catwalk model or a politician. Beauty is defined by how close you look to a white woman.
yeah but Leila the implication of your first post was that if you dont find those features attractive then you are racist
The thing I don’t understand is that there appears to be a circular logic to all this. If there is a lot of anti-black racism in a society, it means that white men/women will be reluctant to marry a black person because, in their warped racist view of the world, it would mean they are ‘trading down’. Therefore, it is argued, the way to combat this for black men/women to only marry black women/men. However, I would have thought that multiracial marriages — two people’s triumph, as it were, over the racism of a particular society — sends a far more powerful message to the world; and that this is, in some ways, one of the hallmarks of a society that has overcome racism: that people can see beyond race.
I hope I haven’t offended anyone but this is one of the things that has always perplexed me.
Why aren’t elderly people considered to be just as beautiful as young people? Is this a matter of conditioning too? Is clear, supple skin really more appealing than bags and wrinkles, or is this just a sad case of ageist oppression?
Assalamu alaikum, regarding how Est Africans treat white people, I’ve traveled to The Gambia and Senegal, and I don’t recall being treated badly by anyone. I don’t recall being taunted, and I never felt unsafe, although I never went walking around by myself late at night, on a dark street either.
However, I’m sure that if I looked hard enough, I’d find someone who didn’t like me because I was white! In fact, in my experience, I got treated worse by the African-American students who were in the study group with me, than I did by the West Africans that I encountered. Two things I clearly remember was one of the girls in my group saying, “All white people are racist, they just don’t know it.” And I thought, hmmm, I can’t believe I didn’t know that about myself. And I said, “If I were a racist, what would I be doing sitting here in the middle of West Africa!” Of course, I guess people who don’t know me will say that that doesn’t matter, because I’m white, I’m just genetically preprogrammed to hate black people. Antoher event I clearly remember was one day in class, when we were talking about slavery, colonialism, etc., some of the men in the class said something to the affect of “How does it feel to be back here in the mother land, now that you enslaved our people.” etc., etc., to the point that some people were almost in tears over it! Not to metnion the time that someone in the group asked me “What are YOU doing here”, as if I had no right to be here. Or there I should say. And this reminds me of an interesting story a friend of mine told me.
One of his friends, I think it was, went and had oen of those genetic tests done where you can trace your ancestry. This guy found that 2% of his ancestry could be traced back to The Gambia. So on hearing that, I said, “Oh, that’s not surprising, he’s African-American, many slaves came from that part of West Africa”. Trouble is, my friend stopped me and said, “No, you don’t understand, most of his family is Irish, and he looks completely white!” What a shock! My friend, by the way, is African-American. Everyone calls him Doc because he’s always helping people, etc. with their problems. Anyway, my whole point is, Allah alone knows best, and when you think you’re looking at one thing, you might be looking at something else! We are all children of Adam, and Allah did create us, the many tribes, antions, etc., so that we may know one another. Or did I miss something here! I didn’t realize that we had our own Muslim version of the Aryan nation.
Amir, you said:
“However, I would have thought that multiracial marriages — two people’s triumph, as it were, over the racism of a particular society — sends a far more powerful message to the world; and that this is, in some ways, one of the hallmarks of a society that has overcome racism: that people can see beyond race.”
All of that sounds fine and dandy. The problem here is that African American men are the ones who are flocking to non-African American women in great numbers, however, the reverse can not be said. AA women have a hard enough time finding a good AA man as it is, so if we were to see an increase in inter-racial marriages, where would that leave AA women in all of this?
Hathaway, and your point is what. That white pale skin is obviously more beautiful than dark skin. yeah ok, this is exactly where this type of attitude leads.
Personally I feel sorry for the daughters born into any of these marriages. Especially when turns out to be the spitting image of the black father.
Um Abdullah I also feel sorry for daughters born into black/black marriages because their prospects for marriage don’t look good either
Ginny, I hate that whole all white people are racist. Its really tired. White people do not have a monopoly on racism.
Yusuf what I meant was how they will be treated by their parents. You know I believe most women can find good husbands, what really helps is a supportive and loving family to instill a strong sense of self worth in a woman. There are plenty of women who most think are unattractive in great marriages because they have nice personalities or their family help contract a good marriage on their behalf. If your parents think you are worthless or subpar because you got all the African genes, are they really going to make an effort to help in find a good mate. They will dump you on the first loser who comes along because they dont value you. Thats what I meant. I feel sorry for daughters who have to grow up feeling they are worthless because they were born dark, or fat or homely or whatever superficial label people like to apply to women.
Aneesa,
Great Numbers? Let’s not exaggerate now. a lot of us may be into white women, but I don’t see it being “great numbers”
I feel you Um Abdullah, but what do you make of all the single AA sisters and the large number of those in abusive “marriages”? What should those sisters do that have no family?
I fit in the category many black women despise: College educated and married to a non-black (Asian) woman, three happy biracial kids and a stable home by Allah’s grace. I know the situation for many AA sisters is bad, but I don’t think I should be made to feel guilty for that.
Jazak Allah khair. Now it makes some sense. I suppose that the relatively high incarceration rates for marriage-age AA men has also served to reduce the options for AA women. And, I would imagine, as an AA woman becomes more educated (thus increasing her ‘price’ to available AA men) or becomes a Muslim (thus limiting the supply of available AA men to only Muslims) it is even harder.
Some ways to solve this would be to somehow prevent AA men from marrying non-AA women (or to impose a social cost on men that take such an option), allow those AA men that want to marry AA women to marry more than one, or to increase the supply of non-AA men that would be willing to marry AA women through immigration.
Do you have daughters? I’ve wondered about men who marry interacialy desireing those mixed kids and the kids dont come out that way. I have known so many mixed kids who look plain ole black or asian or whatever. Do you find your child who did not end up being lighter is seen as less than the other siblings, do you treat them differently?
Secondly, the limited marriage choices for AA women is an issue and apart of the problem is that theie undying loyalty to black men at all costs. And actually this is anotehr topic I think there are other issues that make some AA women not attractive to some men for marriage that is beyound skin color issues and their is some validity to some of those preferences. But that is another topic……
Fascinating post bro… I for one did not have a chance to read all the comments, but throwing in my “two cents”, I would state that it is not all that rosy being a “white” convert either. You are still that guy who has no real friends in the Masjid, and still get strange looks while walking down the street with your Arab-hijabi wife, and so on.
This is a serious issue, and it seems many Muslims want to sweep all this under the carpet - often after “sucking us in” with this idea of transcendant fraternity and brotherhood which disregards race and ethnicity.
Um Abdullah I have two sons (16 and 9) and a daughter (7) and all are light skinned (all about the same color) with Asian eyes. My middle son and daughter are a little more Asian looking than my oldest. The only one I treat differently is my little girl and that is because she is a girl.
Are you referring to the neck shaking thing?
Kid Pasta,
Maybe our definition of “great numbers” is different. Almost a third of the brothers at the masjid I attend are married to Moroccans or non-AA women. I consider that “great numbers”.
AA men are the biggest “offenders” when it comes to marrying outside of their race which adds to the difficulty in finding gooding mates for AA women.
Is it really hard for an AA Muslim woman to find a non-AA man? I would have thought that if significant numbers of non-AA women were marrying AA men, there would have been a commensurate increase in the numbers of non-AA men willing, or forced, to take AA women?
Amir, you are not American are you? Why would anyone be forced to marry an AA when we are minorities, only 12% of the population. The Muslim community here is only 2% of the population and that is being generous. Which is why the fact that some communities so many AA men marry non-AA can cause a great deal of problems.
Anyway, its no diffent then what older/divorced women in the Arab world go through. Unfortunately some AA women won’t ever get married, especially if they converted at an older age. That may be their test from Allah, there are women like this and masha Allah its a testiment to their faith for them to remain steadfast on the deen despite the hardships of being without compansioship, may Allah reward them for their patience
No, I’m not from the US.
I’m just trying to understand why, if white and other non-AA women are willing to marry AA men, more AA women are not marrying non-AA or white men? I would have thought that a surplus of AA women would, as a result of the reduced notional price of a good AA woman, have attracted more non-AA and minority men eager to find a better woman than they might have been able to ‘afford’ or attract had they been competing only in the non-AA marriage markets.
Salam, i read a lot of the posts about this issue. Truth be told, i am a black female, i suffered racism from my own people and other races as well. What i wanted to say was that, this whole “i want my kids to look white thing”, didnt exist before colonial time or the westernization of our society. We have been conditioned (whether it is black, asian or arabs) to think that liter is better. This manisfest itself differents ways: Asians wanted to have rounds eyes , using lightnening cream, having surgeries to get taller , Black women wanted to look like barbies with blonde wigs (hello Lil’ Kim and Beyonce anyone/!), Arabs trying to pass off as white, even white people trying to have plum lips, boobs and butts implants.
shaytan really is gaining terrain here, and we are just facilitating the way for him. Because in the end, black or chinese, if we dont get control of our nafs, shaytan surely will. Aint nothing wrong with marrying outside your race or inside of it, just do it for the right reasons.
I, myself find educated tall big black with very dark skin attractive, it aint a racist thing, i just like that swagger that they have!!! lol.
anyway, Ma Salama, may Wa’ Tala guide and keep us on the straight path. Amen.
[...] Tariq Nelson has opened up a can, actually a few cans, of worms and sent them racing across the floor over on his blog. After warning readers to leave their emotional baggage at the door, Tariq writes about African-Americans (AA) marrying other races and some of the motivations for it. For Muslims living outside the United States, the problems faced by AA Muslims don’t get much coverage. [...]
I think alot of what is being discussed here are symptoms.
Causes and cures are not being discussed.
I agree with mamytha that we are letting Shaitan get the best of us.
There seems to be a false loyalty to race that dictates that interracial marriage is some type of sell-out for men. For women there’s the same, yet much more of a stigma seems to be placed on it. And the way American culture is, it seems the last frontier for even nominal acceptance is Blackwomen/Whitemen. Other combinations have been nominally accepted for years.
Women should honestly ask themselves what are the negative connotations that surround them so as to cause men not to marry them or to desire to marry them. Men should ask themselves the same.
Women should honestly ask themselves what are the negative connotations that surround them marrying others so as to cause them not to marry, or to desire to marry, other than their race. Men should ask themselves the same.
Why are concerns of race taking precedence over concerns of basic welfare and a healthy psyche (for you and your children.)?
The Messenger of Allah said:
“It is not befitting for a believer to denigrate himself.”
The people said “How is that?”
He replied “He exposes himself to harm that he can’t bear”
Two of my three children are biracial and although I didn’t marry for this reason I think that it is part of a good strategy for survival. Who wants their children to go through what the little boy Tariq talks about in the fight above went through? Like it or not, light skin has its advantages in the Muslim world and if your children have it, then that is one less obstacle for them
Well in general black women love black men, they love men that are very masculine which usually leads them back to Black men. Men like feminine women, and due to a variety of factors AA women in general are not considered as feminine as other women, particularly white and Asian.
What I was infering to before is that many AA women really dont want to or maybe dont know how to exude that femininity that most men really want. This is a byproduct of the American culture where AA women have had to take on both male and female responsibilities in raising families. Many times they dont know how to defer to their husbands and can sometimes behave in an emasculating way. This is not totally unique to AA women because I have heard this said about American women in general, which is why more and more American men are looking overseas (china, latin America) to find wives. No matter what the Left wants to promote, men are men and want/need to be treated that way.
mashallah hijabi apprentice i agree with you. in the end of the day we are all muslims. and we just need to be grateful to allah and stop letting the shaitan get to us. people are to superficial these days.
Masha Allah good points Um Abdullah