For those who like to marry as a hobby, here is a line of , um…poetry, for your next interview to explain who you are
“Find ‘em, Marry ‘em, and flee”
I find ‘em marry ‘em and flee you know
But before I G.O.
Yo, I take a *bint to the hotel
To the motel
To the holiday inn [SAY WHAT??!] <–Have a friend say the part in brackets
If that *bint start messin’ up, yoI’ll just marry her friend …
*Bint = Girl in Arabic
Filed under: Posts of no Benefit
Wow you got skills. I guess you can be the next Diddy
You know I have heard dudes talk like this. Seen many more with the attitude at least.
*sighs*
i hate to come off like i’m anti-black men or salafi fo that matter but they do this crap a lot. they treat muslimahs like we’re gutter trash women. we wear hijab for a definite reason and their mission in life seems to be undressing as many muslimahs as they can you know. why us ? why do this to the muslimah? we’re more than just walking, hijab-wearing instruments of male sexaul gratificataion. there are sooooo many non muslims out there just biting-at-the-bit to get with a muslim “man” (because they want to prove we’re no different then/from them).
was it otis redding who sang “papa was a rolling stone, where ever he laid his hat was his home…….”?
islaam is more than this… black men treat women this way before conversion and bring that garbage with them. i think they go for the convert muslimahs especially because they know that we don’t havae mahram; most imaams are too punkish to take on the responsibility; walis sometimes don’t even really investigate these guys (they can use the internet for free and learn tons of info about people,like if they’re sex offenders, owe back child support (if they owe enough)). but no one is really looking out for the convert muslimahs. and for the immigrants their mahram might not even be here in the usa. or maybe they don’t speak english well enough.
Well, I was going to blame Salafi Dawah because its definitely a big part of the problem but then I remember that this happens with TJ and Sufi circles to some extent but no where near the level of Salafis. My theory is that its because the Salafi dawa comes out of KSA and basically they bring the Saudi attitude toward women here. Unfortunatly the attitude is not Islamic nor is an attitude that will work in modern times. The attitude that women can be used and tossed aside at the mans whim, an attitude that doesnt care about taking care of the children produced. Search the internet for men from KSA that abandon families in Morrocco or India. So you got Black men coming to Islam from a background of running game on women and not taking responsibility for their offspring, then they come to Islam through men who run game on women and dont take care of their offspring. So basically, nothing is going to change.
um abdullah,
you are right on. these jerks are the shame of islaam. they are nothing more than whores dressed in white thobs. they have hijacked our religion, i.e. the image thereof i mean. they’re the most vocal. the most religious. but whores nevertheless.
I will tell you what the problem is, for many people Islam is just another phase in their lives.
They were players before they converted, they now “play” the Islamic system and dont change their actions at all.
Before they converted they slept around, had babies out of wedlock, didnt work, didnt support themselves or their children. When they convert they seem to do the exact same things, but they find “Islamic” justification for doing it.
What, realistically, is the difference between getting married 20 times, and just having 20 girlfriends? It seems often that the girlfriends would cost more, at least you have to take them out, buy them things. When you get married, the dowry goes out the window, you make the woman support you, ect. But this way you are “moral” in that you are married, never mind that you will rack up 10 marriages in 5 years. Now they can say they followed the religion, it is okay.
Realistically, for these guys, the religion changes very little for them. They just have to change the trappings, the excuses for their behavior.
They fail to understand that Islam is supposed to CHANGE their behavior, not be there as a way to justify, even moralise their behavior.
The reason this problem is more with salafis is because it in my opinion only concentrates on physical aspects of Islam (beard, pants legs) and little to no concentration on the inner. They are also encourage extremely literal thinking so if one is doing the outer aspects the inner does not matter as much. The thing with brothers marrying 20-30 times started after the misyaar fatwas were being passed around. A “good brother” is the one with a beard, pants above the ankles, kufi, thobe and calling himself salafi and nothing else matters. The brother could be a horrible money manager or not have a job and it has no bearing.
The other issue is that, hmm this might open a can of worms but. There is some knowledge that is meant for the only a small segment of society. In the west we don’t want to acknoledge that. We think everyone is intellectually equal and capable of understanding the most complex knowledge. This is just not true, just like most of us will never be astrophysicists, most of us are not mean to be Ibn Arabi. Most of us just need to learn the basics of Islam and spend the bulk of our time improving our Akhlaq.
Now we have people who can barely graduate from high school talking about extremely complex religious and philisophical questions that they have no real understanding of. Honestly I think this goes for most of us. Not saying we don’t read and strive to learn the deen but I know personally I don’t have the ability, nor time to really sit around studying usool ul Fiqh when I struggle to have khushu’ in my salat, when I struggle with removing my love of dunya, I struggle with treating my parents and husband and children with unselfish love and kindness. My time is best spent on the basics, making salat, reading Quran, dhikr, serving my family and friends etc.
Some brothers like to sit around sounding like they are great philosphers but they don’t even have the very basics of deen down, this is what matters, what we will be held accountable for in the hereafter. This is not unique to the Salafi Dawah either.
Ohhhh, now I really get your post. At first I thought your “poetry” was loosely based off of lyrics to a Sugar Hill Gang song but I’m just finding out that they’re lyrics to a nasty N.W.A. song. So I guess you don’t have skills after all, but that’s fine, cause neither does Diddy.
Abu Sinan:
Your comments are so on point. I know a sister who was married to a brother whose been married 25 times (currently, he’s only married to one sister). Anyway, he married some of his wives the same day that he met them. In some cases, he wasn’t attracted to them at all but married them anyway, slept with them and then divorced them a short while later. And he honestly thought that there was nothing wrong with it. How is that any different than a one night stand or having a girl on the side. It’s truly disgusting.
The other thing that is disgusting is that these men don’t get tested for STDs nor do they ask the women to get tested because after all, STDs are only for those in haraam relationships. He has herpes but refuses to acknowledge that he has it or inform his prospective wives even though 3 women (that we know of so far) who have been with him have tested positive for it. Maybe he’s in denial and these women are just plain stupid for not requesting a man that has been with over 20 women to get tested. As far as I know, HIV is spread just as easily as Herpes, so why are we potentially putting our lives at risk like that? As women we need to be held more responsible for the stupid decisions that we make. There is only so much blame we can put on these brothers or scapegoat walis.
[...] gets poetic about love ‘em and leave ‘em brothers and their compulsive need to marry, plus a there’s a great post about apathy and lack of [...]
Assalamu Aleikum wa Rahmatulahi wa Barakatuhu,
First time here. I came through Izzymos suggestion.
I read Umm Abdullah’s comment and I second it. actually, I wrote a comment on a recent post of sunnisisters.com on her post on “things I have noticed”. It was a lot like what UmmAbdullah is saying here. ( I don’t think my comment is up yet, though).
The more educated of the Muslims sometimes assume that learning aspects of our deen is easy for everyone. But without guidance, and support, it is often not easy in the long run.
Now, I am not justifying bad boy behavior, but the sisters also need to check up on these brothers. If these brothers have children they are not taking care of, an alarm bell should sound off. They should be wary of having more children with these brothers. Although the responsibility for their own actions lies in them, we are all connected somehow as an ummah and it affects us all. Wa Allahu Alim.
Also, some of these brothers end up practicing polygyny stating their “rights” and not paying too much attention to their responsibilities. But there are many in our ummah that do not dare talk them down from that. It is like their “rights” supercede their responsibilities. In essence sometimes Muslims empower brothers like this.
So, is this a salafi-bashing comment thread? Why don’t we specify the types of so-called salafis we are talking about? Its specifically the African-american Philly-style “super-salafis” that are involved in the musical chairs with wives. Perhaps it is their own past culture that is used to justify this behavior. But HOW in the world does that have anything to do with “salafi” teachings? Give me a BIG break. This stuff does not happen in KSA, whoever said so is a liar. As for treatment of women, how is it any worse in KSA than the other so-called Muslim countries? No, I am not defending the abysmal treatment of many women in Saudi, all I am saying is that it is not synonymous to any creed, rather it usually stems out of cultural practices that are intertwined with religion.
As for you, Yusuf, perhaps those are the only ’salafis’ you met, but you’ll find that those who practice the ahl-hadith manhaj are mostly not like this. In fact, as I said, the only ones I have seen are in the inner-cities of NE and some other regions, where people with little knowledge and big labels have focused on the narrow issues of the deen.
The stereotyping here is out of proportions, wow! Why don’t we blame the people, instead of the dawah!!
Amad
Musings of a Muslim Mind
Amad:
“Super-Salafis”? How many different salafis are there? “Bat-salafis”? “Flash-Salafis”? “Spider-Salafis”? “Wonder-Salafis”? A salafi is just as I described above. They put a lot of emphasis on external and little to none on internal and live in a fantasy world. I think everyone here knows that the name ’salafi’ is a misnomer for this group
Philly has by far more salafis than any other city in the states and is a good place to know what salafis are like. do they think that garbage they put their families and other women through is a benefit for them? They think marrying and divorcing naming that sunnah. One of the popular leaders have taken this game overseas and married and never returned like a bandit in the night. it would be one thing if they repented butthey set a fine example for the ranke and file to folloow
Well I was blaming the culture from KSA not the dawah totally, although it is part of the problem. There are inner city AA who become sufi and TJ, why isnt this problem with them the way its so prevelent with those who follow the Salafi dawah. I mean there maybe a divorce or two but to use Islam as an excuse basically serially fornicate. Its one thing to sin and be ashamed and hide it but its another thing to promote it as being from Islam.
And yes men in KSA do marry abroad and leave the children. Its happened here in the US too many times, I have met several children of these situations.
And obviously this is a class thing but you shouldnt go to people who have problems and start teaching them about polygyny and their rights when they dont even know how to be married and take care of one family.
Amad,
Yes, this stuff DOES happen in Saudi Arabia. I am married to a Saudi woman. She has told me all sorts of similar stories. It sounds like a really bad Jerry Springer episode. Saudi husband leaves Saudi wife for Indonesian maid. Saudi men, well over 50 years old, head to Yemen, Morroco and other poor localities to buy their wives.
Yes, I say buy because they pay the father/family a few hundred dollars and they take the girl (12-21 years old) back to Saudi. It is a transaction, girl for money. The father in this case are nothing more than pimps for their daughters. But they, they are poor, at least they have an excuse. What is the Saudi guy’s excuse? Except for being old, tired of his 3 other wives, and wanting to look good for his friends?
This goes from top to bottom in Saudi society. The Saudi royal family are KNOWN for this behavior. Some of these Princes have been married dozens of times. Not to mention their well known trips to European and Gulf brothels.
The first king of Saudi Arabia, Abd-Al Aziz al Saud was married 17 times. Certainly sounds like these people we are talking about here.
Prince Sultan, current Crown Prince of Saudi has been married many times. He had an affair with a Sudanese maid whose illegitimate outcome is now known as Prince Bandr bin Sultan, former Ambassador to the USA. At least he finally recognised the son from his maid.
Saudi Arabia is JUST as dirty and corrupt as here in the USA, except they act as hypocrites because they hide it and then claim to be pious. The girls and boys in Saudi run around, date, have sex, drink, get drunk, do drugs, you name it. There are well known places in Riyadh where the young met to have sex.
My sister in law, a professor in Jeddah, told me about how the girls there have subtle ways of letting each other know who is a lesbian so they can meet up later. The female schools are KNOWN for lesbianism.
If you think this stuff doesnt happen in Saudi Amad you have either never been to Saudi, dont know about the society, or have your head in the sand.
What you all are describing is hyprocracy. Any man who behaves in this way and calls himself a Salafi, is truely not upon the Salaf, even if he Claims this. Just as a person upon the falsehood of the Nation of Islam, calls himself a Muslim, even though he is not.
A salafi is a muslim who “adheres to the Path of the Messenger, may the peace of Allah upon him, and Faithful Believers, namely the Pious Forefathers (i.e. as Salaaf as Saalih) of the Islamic Community of Believers and all those who follows in their footsteps in belief, ACTIONS and MORALS.” There is nothing in this description about pants, beards or any other External attributes. Let’s not be like the kuffar everytime they see a muslim with a long beard and thobe “ah a terrorist.” Or in Your case. “Look there’s a brother with a beard, short pants and he’s BLACK, must be one of those polygyneous, wife-abusing, womanizing Salaafis from Philly.” Fear Allah!
I know plenty of women who have been womanized by SUNNI/Ikhwani/Sufi types- what we are talking about is sin. Throw-backs from our time in Jahhil. This can aflict the heart of any muslim regardless of his manhaj. This is a sign of a person deficient his ilm, week in his eman and struggling is his ebaadah. Make dua for your brothers, your sisters and children, because this could be you. All of us are susceptable to the plots of the Shaytan, Audhu billah. So be don’t so quick to judge. . .
Yaa Abu Sinan, fear Allah dude! Those were very bold allegations of Zina that you made against Prince Sultan. In one account I heard that the mother of Prince Badr was a wife and in the other account a slave girl, either way his birth would be legitimate. If he were born of an affair, he would have been hidden from the world or blamed on a driver NOT the Ambassador to America.
Yusuf, you need to go back to your whirling and singing… it seems thats where your head is, so I am not going to attempt to get into a reasonable discussion with you.
There are different people that call themselves salafis, just like there are different people who like to call themselves sufis, all the way from Hamza Yusuf to Stephen Schwartz. Its not the label that controls behavior, but rather its the behavior that should define label.
Abu Sinan, I am not completely ignorant of what goes on in Saudi, but there is even more openly lewd behavior in Pakistan, as one example. So, should we blame sufism for those problems? The religious people I know in Saudi are mashallah excellent people, who take care of their families and prescribe that same sense of responsibility to their peers and students. Read this interview of Sh. Ibn Uthaymeen’s (RH) wife by clicking here. That is the example set by our scholars, not what the Philly boys are doing.
It is truly pathetic that we have such low standards of discussion, of accusing a whole dawah of behaviors that you do not find in the scholars of that dawah. Did you know for instance that Ibn Taymiyyah never even married? “Let not the hatred of people towards you move you to commit injustice.” [Qur’an 5:8]
-Amad
Musings of a Muslim Mind
Amad:
“whirling and spinning?” You are assuming a lot dude. Who here said that Ibn Uthaymeen acted like the Philly salafis? That is a sorry strawman. Even though I am not sufi or ‘ikhwani’, I can point out excellent behavior amongst sufi and ikhwani scholars too so what’s your point? Look across America and let’s look at the fruits You are trying to cloud the issue that there is a major problem with this so called (and mislabeled) ’salafi dawah’ that is very destructive. If you look at my original post I mentioned that salafis put too much emphasis on outer things and little to none on the inner. do you disagree with that? Can I point a brother here or there that is a nice brother and is salafi? Yes I can, but that does not mean that we are supposed to ignore the fruits we see in front of our eyes on a daily basis? Why don’t the responsible salafis try to put a stop to this? Where are they other than a brother here and a brother there?
If you live in Philly, you’ll see the fruits of Philly. I lived in Houston before I came to the unfortunate NE, and there is none of this problem there. For instance, we just came out of a Texas Dawah Convention where there 3000 people, following and acting upon Sunnah. Review the topics by clicking here. Perhaps you’ll pick up on what our dawah is.
The so-called ‘fruits’ that you are talking about, are limited to certain areas. Maybe in your areas. I also see a lot of fruits of discord that ikhwanis are spreading throughout America… I saw some of that in Houston too. But I am far from blaming the whole movement based on my specific experiences. What you are doing is the same type of stereotyping that is done about Muslims by the West.
I have seen the good fruits of the dawah upon the Sunnah as well. By the way, even though these Philly brothers have gone to extremes in this one issue, don’t you see how many people they removed out of drugs, alcohol and of course out of the calamity of disbelief? So, give credit where credit is due. Don’t ask for perfection in the heart of the slums and inner-city.
By the way, this small group of ’super-salafis’ is shrinking in the bigger picture. Even though the numbers in the slums may be increasing because its the only act there, and I would rather have over-zealous Muslims than to have kaffirs. Outside specific zones, and groups such as TROID/SPUBs are shrinking in both their ‘accepted circle of scholars’ as well as their following. I do plan to address them in my own little way inshallah, on my blog.
While your focus seems to be the over-zealous ‘outward-emphasis’ (which I don’t disagree happens with the super-salafis), may be you should also put a little of your focus on the extreme innovations and nuances of shirk increasingly being preached by sufis in America (again, not all, but definitely a growing number). In my humble opinion, a little over-zealous practice is not as blameworthy as innovation and shirk (even if mostly the minor type).
Amad:
I am not sufi. Seems to be a difference in ethnicity. The ’super-salafis’ you refer to are black and your group are immigrants. Again you are making straw man arguments. Who said that they are better to be non-Muslims than salafis? I’ll agree that the TROID fitnah is shrinking but it is taking the entire thing with it and people are finding a new approach.
I’ve spent time in both Salafi and Sufi circles and whatever is in between, and the bottom line is that no one is actually openly encouraging the sort of behaviour Tariq is mentioning here. What happens in any circle, regardless of label, is that some people will simply find any Islamic excuse to satiate their own desires. This isn’t a problem with the whole Salafi da’wah or those involved in Tasawwuf; this is a problem in us as people - and it’s not being addressed because we try to simplify it by blaming other groups.
That is, I don’t think you can generalize the problem to any single group. All of us are subject to the same weaknesses, and all of us need to help one another. Really, I don’t think the problem isn’t the salafi da’wah or the sufi practices or anyone else seeking to serve the deen; the problem is the people who are trying to use the deen to justify their own bad habits.
So let’s not let this degenerate into a meaningless salafi/sufi argument, please?
Well said Faraz, I didn’t have the same clarity of purpose in my comments, but I was trying to the convey the same. As I said and you will agree that it is not the labels that define all the behaviors within (usually)… just like all Muslims don’t practice Islam completely.
Umm Adam,
It is well known in Saudi. She was a maid, Prince Bandar was born of their relationship. Prince Bandar, indeed, was hidden from society for years until his father decided to live up to his obligation.
His mother WAS a slave, Prince Sultan decided to make his “legit” after the fact. This is well known. My father in law was a diplomat to Prince Bandar, worked for him for 25 years, it was known by him, his family, and all of the diplomats here.
I think this is one of the reasons for the way Bandar is, the hard-drinking womaniser that he is. I dont understand why you find this hard to believe. The royal family is KNOWN for these types of behavior.
The royal family doesnt care what people think. If they did they would flee, almost en mass, to Europe during Ramadan do eat, drink and party. They wouldnt come to the USA and be known for drinking, drugs, and particularly blond American woman.
Look, my wife’s family worked with these loosers for 40 years, we know all we need to know about them.
They could compete with the most corrupt from Hollywood with their behavior.
Amad,
This stuff happens in Saudi. Heck, even some of the religious policem are like this.
They, on the whole, are hypocrites, that is why I believe those who say that the Al-Masee7 al Dajal will come from the Najd.
Saudi Arabia, if it was known by the outsiders, would be just as bad or worse than Hollywood. At least those in Hollywood dont pronounce their religious credentials and then act like this under cover.
Saudi is full of drug addicts, courts who give custody of children to drug addicts, drunks, homosexual marriages in Medina. Man, it is little different than San Francisco, men who have anal sex with other men, then deny they are gay, women who have anal sex with boyfriends so as to protect their “virginity” for their future husbands. Drugs, alcohol, prostitutes. Lesbianism being that big fashion at Saudi universities, with gangs of Lesbians going around “recruiting” for their “parties”.
Annual and regular sex trips to Asia for the men. Fathers taking their boys to Thailand for drunken orgies, that after letting him practice on the Philipina maid after the father has broke her in. This causing AIDS to become a major problem in Saudi to no one is talking about.
Those who think Saudi doesnt have these things make me laugh. They are like the people who convert to Islam thinking that Muslims are better than others in their way of life.
Wake up, Saudi is NO different than any country in the West, it just has an “Islamic” facade.
Abu Sinan, I know you have said that your wife is from Saudi, but that doesn’t preclude the fact that other people may know Saudis too. I have many friends from there. I have heard many horror stories too, and know there is some really bad stuff going on. But, there is also good stuff going on, and obviously your hatred for Saudi society, for whatever reason, is belittling the good aspects. As I said, I am not Saudi, I have no reason to cheer for Saudi, all I am saying is that other Muslim countries aren’t any better.
I know from people that those who want to be good in Saudi, can enjoy a very Islamic life, and do better than us in the West. There are Islamic institutions and schools that can’t be matched here in the West. Like anything else, buyer beware.
By the way, is there any other reason for your Saudi-vitriol? Political, religious or this is your objective appraisal without any hidden prejudice?
Amad,
I dont hate Saudi society, I simply refuse to put it on a pedestal as you seem to be doing, and others. It is a very flawed society, little different from the West here. You might know some Saudis, I know dozens and dozens of them, from the average citizen, to sitting diplomates currently serving in high spots at the Saudi Embassy here in the DC, not to mention my father in law was one of them for 25 years.
Are there good aspects of Saudi? Sure, just as there good aspects of every society. What I do not like are those who somehow think that Saudi Arabia is immune from the issues here in the West. They are not, and often suffer from the very same issue in far greater percentages and numbers.
There are Islamic institutions in Saudi, but it is my belief that many of these institutions teach things that are completely unIslamic, ie hatred, pathelogical even, of Jews, Christians, Shi’ites and other Sunni Muslims who do not match their particular ideas. Women not driving? NOT Islamic. Women being forced to wear niqab? Not Islamic. A complete ban on churches or synagogues anywhere in the Kingdom? Again, not Islamic! A monarcy of parasites, stealing the people’s money to live unIslamic lives in their mansions, with their drugs, alcohol and whores? That is the basis of Saudi society.
If the basis of Saudi society (ie the al Saud family) is drug and whore mongering, than one can easily say that the is based on a lie, on unIslamic acts and is bound too fall.
It is simply BECAUSE I am a Muslim that I reject the al-Saud family and the cancer that they have become to the people of the Arabian Peninsula. I am against anything that is against Islam, gives Islam a bad name, therefor I MUST reject the al-Saudi family and the lackies who serve them.
Again, I have no issue against the people of the Arabian Peninsula, most of which would love to be free of the whore-mongering al Saudis. Not even a small fraction of the people in the country are related to the family known as al-Saud, and the day that they are all freed from the pimp masters in Riyadh will be a great day for the people of the country and for Islam.
It is interesting to note that when people question the unIslamic practices of the Saudi establishment their motives are always questioned. No, I am not a Shi’ite tool, no I am not a “yahoodi spy”, no, I am not one of the “progressive Muslims” who would want to reform Islam out of existance.
I am a Muslim who knows that Mohammed (PBUH) once kicked out people like this from Makkah, and now it is filled with the same people who worship materialism, rule for their own personal fulfillment.
Insha’Allah, the day of their fall is soon. If they do not get their punishment in their life, certainly they will face it in the next. Allahu Akbar!
Abu Sinan
1. I was under the impression that slave girls were permissible, making Prince Bandar the legitimate son.
2. The rest of your accusations were exaggerated, full of hype, and can easily be refuted (for one women are not FORCED to wear niqab here…go to cities like Jeddah and Khobar and you will find many Saudi women with no niqab and painted faces), but I just don’t have the patience for these types of discussions.
So, Abu Sinan, I am not saying you are a shia-tool, but are you a Shia? One’s own background makes a huge difference on one’s objectivity, that’s just natural human instinct.
As for the bara’ of Jews & Christians, I think many non-Muslims will tell you that the Quran teaches that hatred too. It all has to be in context. People who associate partners with Allah, or mock Allah, cannot be loved. Their actions have to be hated, but one has to be just with them. So, I cannot agree with your evaluation of the Islamic institutes, because that definitely represents your own biases. My point was very clear: those who are not biased against the kind of teachings in Saudi, would be happy to have that option available to them. I am sure, for instance, that sufis and shias would not count the Islamic institutes as a plus point, just like a Sunni Muslim wouldn’t count the Institutes in the brutal regime of Iran as a plus point. By the way, did you know that there was not one Sunni mosque in Tehran?
Amad:
Abu Sinan and others (including myself)post a variety of ideas and opinions here because, well…we can. It doesn’t do anyone any good to insinuate that the brother is Shi’a just because he wrote something that he’s observed. You cannot try to categorize Muslims into pre-set cookie cutter groups because what they say doesn’t fit into a pre-defined definition of what is correct/incorrect. Maybe get to know some of the people here and whereever you are before you start hurling labels.
Umm Adam,
Try walking in Riyadh and the Najd without niqab and see what happens. One of the guys with the short thobes are going to give you a hard time, and then probably ask you for your phone number.
It is hardly exageration. My wife’s family is Saudi and knows this stuff first hand. Head to the Saudi Embassy here and you can see it first hand, Saudi diplomates throwing huge drug and alcohol laden parties, their daughters working in the Embassy, having affairs with other diplomates there.
Hah, head to a hookah bar near me, that serves alcohol and has belly dancing on the weekends and you can see the 1/2 dozen or so cars parked outside with Saudi diplomatic plates.
Saudi is just as dirty as any country in the West. See, many people will defend these actions of the Saudi establishment because it is the “home of Islam” they feel they have to take up for them. Wrong. Islam is much better than the al-Saud family.
Take Prince Bandar, for instance, whose favourite drink is Johnny Walker Blue Label. Yes, the former Saudi Ambassador to the US drinks like a fish, and spends the Saudi people’s money just as quick. Well, this “Ambassador of the Home of the Two Shrines” is now working with elements of the Israeli government to attack other Muslims. Yes, “Mr Blue Label” is helping Israel to attack other Muslims.
Amad,
Nice try, I am not a Shi’a nor Sufi. I do not care for their beliefs, as a matter of fact, I feel many of their beliefs are very similar to those that caused me to leave Christianity, but that is their choice. I am not going to play the “bait and swtich” game. The Saudi establishment, from top to bottom, is dirty and unIslamic.
It would seem Amad, that your Islam and my Islam are too entirely different concepts. My religion does not teach me to hate anyone. My religion is of The Qur’an and Sunnah of the Prophet, the same Qur’an where we are commanded to protect the churches and the synagogues BEFORE mosques in the time of war.
You seem to be a muslim of the “takfiri” brand who thinks tha hate is what Islam is all about. I reject that idea. But hey, if you want YOUR Islam to be of the same type that Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes understands, so be it.
Anyone who is a real friend of Islam would not count most of the “Islamic” institutions of Saudi Arabia as a plus. I think you need to get around, it would seem you insulate yourself with people who give you the picture you want to think is reality, but it is not.
I was like you when I converted to Islam, I thought Saudi Arabia must be a good example of what a Muslim country should be like. But then I met Saudis, dozens and dozens of them, gained first hand experience with how the Saudi establishment works, the pimps and whoremasters that run day to day life of Saudi Arabia.
How embarrasing it is to have to explain to co-workers why parties that they have attended, with drugs, liquor and the worst things imaginable, were thrown by Saudi Princes, members of the Saudi Embassy.
How it feels to see Saudis in Europe, members of the ruling elite, partying during Ramadan, eating during the fasting hours, mocking the pious who fast when they think no one understands their Arabic,.
Seeing leading Saudi businessman, members of the royal family, trolling local DC establishments looking for blond women for a night of fun.
The Saudi establishment is a den of vipers. It’s leadership is infected with greed and vice.
If there is one think I agree with al-Queda about it is the need to sweep this scum off the earth so the Arab Peninsula can truly reflect the values of the Prophet Mohammed. What is there today is a nest of vipers, putting on the mask of Islam, but they are not, they are hypocrites, the lowest of the low.
May Allah sweep them and their vice from the home of Islam forever.
Ameen.
“People who associate partners with Allah, or mock Allah, cannot be loved. ”
Amad, so does that mean those of us who have christian relatives are not supposed to love them and pray Allah guides them. Interesting…..
You know what’s really interesting…..NO ONE MOCKS ALLAH AS MUCH AS THE ROYAL FAMILY OF SAUDI ARABIA AND THE LIKE!!!
As a Saudi Citizen, first of all, I think my husband is talking to a brick wall. It seems that people have made their decisions and no amount of FACT OR TRUTH is going to change their minds or at least give them the ability to think twice. I totally understand my husband’s frustration because I have twice the frustration.
One must realize that there is a big difference between RELIGION AND CULTURE. Saudi Arabia may represent itself as being a so-called “religious country” but sadly it is completely the opposite of that notion. In fact, things that go around in Saudi and among the Royals are far far worse than the West. Yet everything is done in a “Hush Hush” manner behind closed doors. At least in the West, I would not call them hypocrites because they do not hide anything nor do they inturn call themselves “religious”.
But then again, what do I know, I am only a Saudi citizen and a member of a well known religious family from Mecca and Medina who have connections to the Al-Sauds………………
I agree with abu sinaan, saudi is simply the worst arab country and worse than the west for its human rights abuses. They just pay lip service to the religion.
I asked Abu Sinan if he was a Shia, a simple question. His answer does matter because it will affect his objectivity. If I was lavishing praise on Iran, for instance, I think people would be interested to know which side of the aisle I stand upon as well, not necessarily to attack me, but rather to weigh the merits of my stance. So, attacking me or my intentions is quite uncalled for.
What is even more interesting is that while I was only questioning Abu Sinan about his background, he has the gall to already establish that I must be of the “takfiri” brand. And all his supporters’ comments conveniently ignored his little jab. Interesting dichotomy here. FYI, no, Abu Sinan, I am not of the takfiri brand.
I find it also quite peculiar, that you talk about all-consuming hatred (that Islam isn’t about hatred), yet it doesn’t stop you from having it for a whole society of Saudi? I NEVER even once assumed or stated that Saudi was some utopia. All I pointed out is that other Muslim countries aren’t that much better. For instance, I am from Pakistan, and the amount of lewdness there is insurmountable. But, at the same time, for someone who wants to get some specific Islamic knowledge from Saudi, that availability exists. What is wrong with that? You may not agree with that specific type of knowledge, but that has no bearing on this statement of fact.
Um Abdullah: I don’t set the guidelines for wala wal bara, Allah does. If, for instance, your Christian cousin mocked your mother, would you not have repulsion towards him? What about the repulsion for the mocking and association of partners with our Creator then? I agree that it is natural to love our relatives, to be just and kind to them. But, we have to have hatred for their shirk. I am not a scholar, so I would suggest brushing up on this concept from someone who is. Perhaps I am completely wrong, and if so, I would love to hear as to how to apply all the Quran verses about Wala wal bara.
In conclusion, it seems that I have rubbed off Abu Sinan the wrong way. For that I apologize. I have had very unpleasant dealings with a Saudi Shia, and that is what makes me a tad too skeptical when I hear Saudi being completely crucified. I do wonder, though, if this sort of unconstructive criticism is of any benefit, and if it is indeed an Islamic thing to do?
Amad:
We all see your point. we’ve all read all of the same books, listened to the same lectures, gone to some of the same conferences, and then some…some of us have studied at the Mahad and overseas…point is…we’ve either heard, read, memorized, and probably even taught all of the stuff that you’re mentioning. One of the purposes of this blog (speaking on behalf of Tariq) is to try to go beyond the copy/paste brand of Muslim conversation. Most of us have been Muslims too long, and have gone through too many changes to really be impressed with anyone who seemingly speaks as if he or she has been up all night brushing up on the Darus-Salam/Hidaayah/Ibaanah publications cliff-notes and wants to engage anyone who comes from a different angle. We’ve been there and done that. It’s time to move on for a lot of us.
Amad, that type of unconstructive criticism has no benefit at all and far from the Islamic thing to do. He questioned if you were a takfeeri when it was his own speech that sounded closer to that of a takfeeri. He takes his information from corrupt sources in the west. What else do you think they will say about their country if they prefer to live in the West. You have different types. Some will come right out (like many of the young saudi bloggers) and say that they love the West for all their vices and hate Saudi for the restrictions. They tend to be the youth, the older one’s Abu Sinan speaks of trying to paint a picture of a currupt Kingdom as if they are preservering their deen and the deen of their family by living in the West as opposed to Saudi. all that other talk about the royals served no purpose. How many people will ever meet them? I have been in KSA for almost 5 years and have never ran across the madness they speak of. I will not deny it exist, but I do not sit in the company of such people. Interesting thing is all ofghis sources are in the West. Good take their filth there and leave those who want to practice their deen here. And why the need to try to knock the Kingdom down in the eyes of Muslims who would want to live in the land of Tawheed where our Prophet (salla allahu alayhi wa salaam ) esablished and spread Islam. Where great measures are taken to preserve His sunnah, where you can freely practice your deen. Where the haramain are and easy access to it. I can think of countless reasons to live here as a Muslim an I pray that Allah allows me to never have to return to the land of the kufar.
Sister Umm Adam,
I would think that Brother Abu Sinan knows a lot about what goes on in KSA since his wife comes from a very religious and well-known Saudi family. I mean he points out that he’s married to an Arab in every single comment he makes so there must be some credence to his words.
It’s obvious that to say the least the KSA is…(ahem) polarizing. The difference is of course that whatever goes on there will be magnified because it is the land of the Prophet (peace be upon him) as opposed to say, Pakistan or Chad or Sierra Leone or Malaysia. All eyes will always be focused on KSA because of that reason. Everyone is going to have their opinions.
Some love ‘em…some don’t. Some are indifferent. I do not live there so I personally could care less. I have enough to worry about right outside my doorstep and moving to any place isn’t really high up on my to-do list. That’s just me.
By the way, I do not believe that this post had anything to do with Saudi Arabia or Salafis. How did it turn into a discussion on the KSA anyway. I believe Tariq simply plagarized a 1991 NWA song and made it his own.
You guys are really too much! Umm Adam, it seems that you have a problem with reading comprehension. My wife didnt choose to live in the West, the SAUDI government sent her father here to live and work.
So somehow that means that her and her family are somehow less religious than others? How pretencious! The idea that living in a “Muslim country” makes you more Muslim is INSANE!
Look, the Middle East, from top to bottom is just plain dirty Saudi Arabia is just the best example of this. I have traveled all of the Middle East, from girls in hijab in Amman wearing skin so tight that you could give them a pelvic exam, to women in Saudi who form Lesbian clubs at the local University. No different than the West…..
But wait, I am wrong, it is different from the West, these are countries that claim to be Muslim, yet their actions, their societies are anything but!
Umm Adam, you do indeed realise that your slam against Muslims living in the West is targeted at all Muslims in the West and not just my wife? For your information it is just my wife, two sister in laws and mother in law law live here. She has dozens of uncles, cousins, a sister, aunts, you name it back in Mekkah, Medina and Jeddah.
But hey, if ou want to think tha living in a “Muslim” country makes your deen superior, who am I to remove that bit of self righteous feeling?
Umm Adam, Saudi Arabia is “so Islamic” that we cannot even live in Saudi legally. Why you might ask? What rule of Islam have we broken that would prevent us from living there? Hum, it would seem that the Saudi “Islamic” government does not recognise our marriage. Why? Well, it would seem that he Saudi govenment has decided their laws trump God’s laws. So that even though we were married through the mosque, married in Islam, married through the state here, they have decided that they have a right to trump God’s laws and decide if they think we shouldbe allowed to be married.
That from the “Islamic” country living in whom, you think, makes one a better Muslim. Excuse me if I dont sit here and LAUGH!
Yes, I am sure you have been in the KSA for almost five years, hence as you have said, you are a better Muslim than those who cannot, through the unIslamic nature of their own governments, live in their own country.
It is clear to me that you refuse to be critical of Saudi because, obviously, you think your deen is better because you live there. You said it yourself. So if one attacks the “Muslim” nature of Saudi, then they are also attacking your superior deen for living there.
Agan Umm Adam, maybe it is your superior deen getting in the way, but my wife’s family is well aware of the corruption and anti-Islamic nature of the ruling elite in Saudi based on their first hand interaction with the royals IN Saudi Araia AND outside it. I think your superior deen is clouding your vision.
Again, it MUST be your superior deen that does not allow you to see the facts that one is NOT allowed to freely practice their deen in Saudi Arabia. It is decided for you what deen you will follow, if you are a Shi’a, if you are Sufi, or you dont follow the hard line Salafi ideas, you are NOT free to practice your religion, you can actually be thrown into PRISON for following it.
But hey, what do I know. I am like 95% of the people posting here who has a lesser deen because I do not live in Saudi Arabia. I am glad to know that the Land of the Two Holy Shrines automaticlly increases everyone’s deen who lives there, including the gay people who got married in Madina, including the royals who import alcohol, the well known Shieks who abuse women sexually in the name of “driving out the jin.”
Insha’Allah, Umm Adam, someday I hope to be superior in my deen, I am glad to know that all we haev to do to become superior is to leave the West and live in Saudi.
I am done with this conversation. Like my wife said, it is like talking to brick wall. So hey, feel free to support the corrupt and unIslamic al Saudi family if it mkes you feel better about yourself. If you feel by supporting the pimps and whoremasters of the al Saud, you are somehow better than the rest of us, have at it! Maybe I can just sit here in the USA and say that supporting Snoop Dog makes me a better Muslim, therefor it must be so.
I am sure, on the Last Day, God will say “Hey, you live in Saudi Arabia, you get a free pass to heaven.”
Enjoy!
Okay, Okay…time out!!
How ’bout those Bears??
Ohh, I hope I wasnt the one who started this…:( I was just trying to point out that why I thought some understanding of Islam was corrupted in many inner cities in the US.)
I think the reason KSA brings out so many emotions is that many people present it as the ideal Islamic place and I have actually been to lectures where students from there act as if sin doesnt happen there. I guess its just misleading and in fact can cause damage. There have been cases when peoples deen was affected because they put KSA on such a high pedestal and then they get there and reality makes them question their deen.
That being said I have had my eyes opened by brother Amads post. He is right that sin happens in every culture and country so KSA should not be singled out. And Umm Adam is correct in that many people will put up with things they disagree with just to live in close proximity to Medina and Mecca. There are still traditional Muslims who live in Saudi and I am sure that is apart of the reason that, despite beign harrassed by the religious authorities there, they still live in KSA. Access to Meccan and Medina are such a blessing and we should never forget no matter the behaviour of the ruling government.
Everyone can’t make hijra but I do realize that there is baraka in living in the land of Muslims but please don’t denegrate those of use who live in the west.
Abu Sinan, you need to chill and get a friggin grip. I could not even read all of that mess you regurgitated! I never once mentioned your wife. You mentioned all the Saudis you know and all the diplomats in America and how corrupt they are (and you basically lump your in laws right up in there with them). I spoke of them in a general sense. Nobody was being self righteous. You are making no sense at all. First you say how corrupt the ppl you know are and when I point out that you are polling ppl that are in the West you want to accuse me of thinking I’m better than them. Well hell ya..you just accused them of being drunken whore mongers!
Khalas already.
Tariq, I know you like to try and ‘keep it real’ but this is a bit much don’t you think? Honestly, this has made me sick. My nerves are shot and I have a headache after reading this. Jazakallahu khayr.
Umm Abdullah, I hope you don’t think I was denigrating those who live in the west. My point was that, what else will a Muslim from a Muslim country who has made reverse Hijrah to the lands of the Kufar say is their reason for living with the kufar. You have Muslims seeking asylum in the West and lying saying they are being tortured and oppressed, because they know they can not just come out and say that they would like a chance of living the American dream. You have Muslims from Saudi who go out of their way to make KSA appear to be hell on earth. Why? Check out the deen of most of them. You will be hard pressed to find a really religious one speaking that way. Yes, they will admit that they have societal ills but you will not see them spewing out hate in the non-constructive way that you have read here. That is the type of hate filled speech that caused Saudis to allegedly start terrorising their own country a few years ago.
TheSaveRashadProject: If anything, your condescending attitude, is more of an affront to this good website, than anything else. Just because you have spent many hours on this blog does not make you its policeman, particularly when you know nothing about me, my background or what books or cliff-notes that I possess or read. My discussion was with Abu Sinan, I apologized to him if I offended him because that was not my intention. That says a lot more than you pretentious I-know-it-all attitude. On the other hand, I have yet to see any regrets from Abu Sinan for the ‘takfiri’ jab. Also, I wasn’t born yesterday; yes I started blogging recently, but I have been in the internet circles from the time internet barely got off the ground. So, please keep your little “I-am-so-smart” jabs to yourself, at least when it relates to discussions that I am having with others.
Abu Sinan: I get your point, and I hope you have gotten mine.
Amad,
I dont feel I have anything to apologise for, and it is clear that your apology was not meant honestly. If you feel the need to point out that you think someone should have done something in response to your apology, then it is clear to me you expected something from it and it wasnt an honest apology.
A honest apology is one done without expecting something in return. This is a basic lesson I have taught my children. It doesnt seem it is a value that everyone shares.
Abu Sinan, your values don’t form absolutes. It seems you have a lot of absolutes starting with the Saudi Society as being absolutely horrific. As long as they are subjective, and not from the 2 texts, there is really no reason to shove it down others’ throats.
Here you go judging my intentions again. In fact, pls don’t apologize, I’ll rather take the reward for the wrongful accusation; I was only giving you an opportunity to recognize it.
Ok Amad, you win man. Do your thing.
Subhanallah.
I read half of these comments, then I jus got bored.
Whatever is going on, Allah azza wa jall is well aware of it. If fulaan is a hypocrite, then he will get his just desserts. I don’t see how any of these discussions helps anyone.
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) knew exactly who the munaafiqeen were, yet he hid this information from many, if not all of the sahaabah (RA).
Do we have nothing better to do? Is our salah so perfect, our tajweed so impeccable and our emaan so complete that we have time for this nonsense?
Perhaps we would be better off trying to save ourselves from the fire, rather than convince eachother that fulaan will be in the fire.
“From the beauty of Islam is that man leaves that which doesn’t concern him.”
Assalamu alaikum, Hmmm, well, I’m not sure where this whole “love ‘em and leave ‘em” phenomenon started withint he US Muslim community, perhaps it is a mixture of different factors, meaning that people who really didn’t try to change themselves after entering Islam, latched onto certain interpretations of Islamic concepts and used them as justification for their continued bad behavior. Now, I don’t know if this came from “Salafis” or “traditioanl Muslims” or who. Maybe the question should be how do we stop this behavior? How do we keep people from continuing this bad behavior? Or at least try to curtail it?
Regarding, while Makka and Medina are there, that doesn’t meant hat I, in turn, should put the current rulers of Saudi on some sort of pedestal! And really, I wonder if there really is that much of a difference between “land of the Muslims” and “alnd of the kuffar”. Just because you’re living in a “Muslim country”, doesn’t meant aht you are living under the rules of Islam!
I find it funny that while so many want to go ona nd on about the “land of the kuffar”, I’m not sure I’d want to live anywhere else! Because at least for now, and this could change, I can walk outside my door and not get beaten by some “moral religious policeman”, because I wasn’t covered to their liking, or I did something else they deemed to be “immoral”. I can make dhikr with prayer beads and I’m not going to be accused of “bida”, of course I guess then I’d have to be careful as to whom I’m around when ding that, but that’s another topic for antoher day.
Basically, as of now, I can practice Islam freely, without having to follow the official methodology that the state decices is the “correct Islam”. At elast here, my husband doesn’t ahve absolute right and authroity over me to the extent that he can pretty much do whatever he watns with me and I just have tot ake it because “he’s the man and it’s his right!”
I really take offense at the “land of the kuffar” comment, like what do you mean by that!? Are you saying that all of us are “bad Muslims” because we happen to live here!? If there was a “so-called Muslim country”, that I could go to, and live as a Muslim, and be protected, then I’d go, but there is no such country. Because wherever you go, your safety as a Muslim is *not* guaranteed! All the US has to do is attack said country and that is that! Most “Muslim countries” are not Islamic, and there is a big difference, true there may be bestiges of Islam, but no country is really an “Islamic” one.
It’s late here and I’m not sure if I’m making sense! I don’t know what the Sauid royal family are, or are not, doing, but I’m most certainly not going to pu them on some sort of pedestal becuase I somehow thing that they are the end all and be all of Islam and Muslims, simply because they happen to be the current rulers of Sauid Arabia who were (weren’t they?) installed by the British anyway? How’s that for kuffar?
Perhaps there are members of the royal family who are pious religious people, I don’t know, however,t he exploits of the royal family are well-known, I’ve even heard my husband (who is definitely not a Sauid), talk aobu tthem. So, I’m all for hiding people’s faults, but how can you hide them when they’re putting them all out there for everyone to see?
The problem I have is people putting up this religous front, acting like they’re so pious and yet behind close doors (or not), they’re acting antyhing but!
Anyway, I don’t want to give the impression that living here in the US is just great and wonderful, for many it’s not, but where else would I live, where I could live up to my full potential as a woman, and a disabled oen at that!? And that is the things that I have to keep in mind. We’ve got problems here int he US, but other countries have problems too, and having the “grass is greener ont he other side of the fence” mentallity, or thinking your grass is greener than anyone else’s, even when there are brown patches everywhere is just, well, not being honest with yourself!
But I guess it’s just eaiser to labe people Shai, Sufi, or act like you didn’t say what you said when you get questioned on things. But oh well!
If there was a “Muslim utopia” that I could just run off to, Allah knows I’d go there, but there is not, and God forbid Muslims start being targeted en masse over here, like Abu Sinan referred to on his blog, the sad thing is, I’m not sure that I’d even be in a position to flee! I fear that I’d just get left behind and rounded up and taken to a camp somewhere, because I feel I don’t have the power to fight it!
Becuase I’d not renounce Islam and then just meld back into my whiteness, although I guess I could do that, but anyway, I’m digressing! In truth, nowhere is safe, I don’t think, which is all the more reason our reliance should be on Allah, and why we should keep praying and makin dua and dhikr that he protects us and makes us strong in our deen, etc.
And I really am finished for now!
I think there is a need to put all of the emotions aside. I’m not justifying anything of course but just because a person drinks alcohol and smokes hookahs and does other major sins that have been mentioned on here does not mean that the person is mocking Allah.. it just means that they are sinful. Our history is full of rulers who were corrupt and sinful but that didn’t necessitate the people to be against them and try to take them down. The most popular example is Hajjaaj. He killed ‘Abdullah ibn Zubayr (radhiyallahu ‘anhu) at the Ka’bah and ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar (radhiyallahu ‘anhu) and others such as al-Hasan al-Basri (rahimahullah) still gave him allegiance. What is worse, drinking some wine and doing zinaa with blonds or killing ‘Abdullah ibn Zubayr?
In shaa’ Allah take it easy and don’t believe the hype. Just because you see a few people behave in a certain manner or you yourself have been affected personally does not mean that you can generalize an entire nation of 27 million people or a family that is in power. Would you like that if it was done to yourself or your family? And Allah knows best.
@ Abu Sinan
If the rulers of any Muslim country commit major sins like the ones you described; that still does NOT take them outside the fold of Islaam. The Messenger of Allaah said in an authentic hadith,
“…you will have many leaders over you. They will have the hearts of devils inside the bodies of men. They will not follow my guidance and will not follow my Sunnah. It was asked “what should I do if I reach that time?” He responded, “hear and obey them, even if they beat your backs and steal your wealth.”!!!
Now you need to close your mouth.