Recovering from the “movement mentality”
This series of posts on the 1990’s salafi movement is probably the most talked about series of all time from a Muslim Blog. Many were forwarded the links from several lists several times over from different cities.
I don’t think the movement mentality and burnout from it is limited to salafis, so I am going to talk mostly about the “movement mentality” in general. So whatever “the movement” happens to be, just fill in the blank.
One of the things that makes Islam in America different from Europe is that there is a significant portion of the American Muslim population that is indigenous. This is not the case in places like the UK where “Muslim” tends to be synonymous with a particular ethnic group (i.e., Turkish in Germany, North African in France, UK mostly SE Asians).
However recently - at least in my mind - the indigenous Muslims are (unintentionally) being dismissed and marginalized and forced out of the picture. More and more, Americans are not seen as “authentic” Muslims and their issues are not seen as “Islamic”.
Affordable housing, health care, education and job training are generally not seen as “Islamic”, while topics such as Palestine, Iraq or Kashmir are seen as the epitome of “Islamic”. It is particularly frustrating to see these same people at times invoke the 1960s civil rights struggle to promote these issues. This - along with the general environment that has been created - makes converts feel left out and marginalized.
Immigrant and second generation Muslims may wonder why I am focusing on this topic at all and/or even ask “So what? … I mean immigrants are the majority of Muslims in this country so you all need to deal with it”. So - with that in mind - usually they suggest that the converts throw their lot fully in with them and immerse themselves in their issues and cultural nuances. This is why you have some converts that opt to pass into the larger and more organized immigrant community and leave their old identity behind. It is also why you have some converts themselves saying that involving ourselves in discussing and fixing the social problems amongst Americans is of “no benefit”.
My problem with that suggestion is that they are only - what? - about 1% of the US population? So why should we cast off one bubble for one that is slightly larger? So the argument of “…but we are the majority of the Muslims” does not wash with me and it is not an excuse to ignore the problems of your fellow human beings.
Secondly, would this not create an identity crisis amongst the children of converts - especially those that are black? Again, these suggestions are not thought through.
So converts are left to just come to these conferences and events - to serve as proof of the wonderful diversity - while the issues of other groups are addressed, and theirs are all but ignored.
Meanwhile, I know men that were heavily involved in these types of movements that are now homeless. I know another that is barely sane now and at times must sleep in the subway for a warm place to stay at night. Should these issues not be discussed at the feel good conferences?
It is fine to discuss the generation gap between “FOBs” and “ABCDs” but one must ask: is there no place for addressing the lack of social structure for converts and those that are falling through the cracks? Out of sight … out of mind right? It makes us feel good, but does nothing to fix real problems on the ground.
Part of the reason I even started this blog was because of the growing social problems that I was personally witnessing- as written about in some of the comments in Umar’s series - was a result of people in that movement - and I must stress, other movements - and not knowing what to do with themselves. The isolationist (and dare I say cultish) way of life was just not realistic over the long term for the adherents or their children.
While reading up on this topic, I found this article from the BBC. Here are some highlights:
Children brought up within a religious sect may suffer mental problems if they leave to live in the outside community, a researcher says.
[...]
Foremost of these was a feeling of alienation from society, and a lack of interpersonal skills.
Former sect members found it hard to form relationships with other people, said Ms Mytton.
And up to 30% of those who had returned questionnaires would benefit from some form of counselling or other help, she said.
[...]
Members who leave the sect may find that, as their entire social network was within its community, they have to start again from scratch.
Ms Mytton found it was those who lost contact in this way who fared worse in her psychological assessment.
She said: “Leaving is quite a traumatic event - you leave your whole family behind, all your social circle - even your whole way of thinking.
“You have to go out and join a society which you have been taught is wicked.”
[...]
She believes that these problems will be reproduced in any sect which involves strict rules with a degree of isolation from society in general. [More...]
Does any of that sound familiar in light of Mr Lee’s posts? Again, let me remind you that I am talking about ANY movement that takes on these qualities and not just one. I am talking about a mentality and the culture that forms around it
A few years ago, I began to talk about these things with others and got stiff resistance and cries that I was overreacting or exaggerating. Meanwhile, people had no place to turn with their problems. Fortunately, now, there are some who see these problems and have resolved to begin to do something about them. However, the first step to solving the problems is to talk about them in a serious and candid manner and to not stiffle the dialogue with crippling taboos.
One of the problems with the “movement approach” is that it calls for us to live in a carefully constructed bubble that leaves the adherents ill-prepared for life’s harsh realities when they almost inevitably come. We just cannot detach ourselves from the world to the point that it has very little practical connection to real life and the things we face on a daily basis.
Inside this bubble a culture forms in which the people that live in it begin to look at things in an extremely literal sense and did not take into consideration (or completely ignored) the real life implications of real human beings. They also begin to look at the outside world in extreme stereotypes, and begin to lead a reactionary life. This is why you’ll see that in this culture things like “all non-Muslims hate us!” and Jewish blood libel stories are so easily believed within a few years by people who were otherwise reasonable people when they walked through the door for the first time.
Secondly, the social implications of the things being said on the minbars of certain masjids were just not thought through. Stressing asceticism - for example - to a person that comes from a culture of underachievement is no more a good idea then stressing hard work to a workaholic.
This culture also creates speakers that enjoy a “rock star” or cult status that others under them strive for. This is the reason why life for many became all about going to the next conference or getting the next “bangin” lecture on tape (nowadays CD)
This extremely literal and meticulous culture is what caused charlatan “duaat” to appear and take advantage of this culture. They found “fiqh loopholes” that allowed them to marry and divorce often and justified them not taking care of their kids left all over the place. According to the letter of the fiqh, they were correct (?) but according to real life they were charlatans following the legacy of Rev Lennox Thomas of Which Way is Up. Others that are close to these “duaat” can name drop in order to get married. This is not to say that all speakers (or even a significant minority of them) who have this “rock star” status have taken advantage of it in such a way. But a few charlatans have come along and taken advantage of it.
Further, it was these same “duaat” that called a person “deviant” who call for realistic social reform of this overly literal culture so that people like them can not continue to take advantage of it. “Verily, it is of no benefit”. Sadly, it is/was their flock -Black Americans - that needed to hear messages about the importance of hard work, education and paternal investment.
Muslim thinkers need to come together and resolve to reform this culture that has formed so that more do not become hurt by it. Once that is done, we can start to look at some of the serious issues that are facing the community in a realistic manner:
- Instead of taking a blind stance of supporting unlimited immigration just because - again - most Muslims are immigrants, we need to start to look at what unfettered immigration means to America in general, to Black Americans and - by extension - to converts of all races. We also need to look at how more immigration is impeding a melding of the American Muslims and creating more social division
- We need to study what I see - and what Dr. George Yancey describes - as a coming “black/non-black” social divide that is - as I see it - already apparent in the Muslim community and will be in America in general as time passes and its ramifications. Think about why Latin and white converts are able to “pass” more easily and assimilate into the larger Muslim community than black converts.
Add to this the fact that black Muslims - in general - are of lower Socioeconomic Status and Muslim immigrants - generally -of high SES. What portends is a huge social gap and the potential of two different Muslim communities in America. One affluent and non-black. The other downtrodden and black. Each one living in its own little bubble.
- Will blacks permanently be on the bottom of the social ladder in both America and the Muslim community?
- Can we break the culture of low expectations and failure that many black Americans bring into Islam and cultivate a culture that promotes hard work and achievement both religiously and secularly?
Then add even on top of that the fact that poverty leads to less access to essential good nutrition for brain development and educational opportunities that make the gap potentially much worse.
- Is Islam in America doomed to become an immigrant thing as it is in Europe?
- Will there be any type of synthesis of the different races and ethnicities in the American Muslim community at all?
- Can we develop a system better than stranger marriage for converts to get married? Then on top of that advising them to an irrational rush to have lots of children with this stranger
- What about the lack of social structure to take care of a convert’s family in the event of death?
The “movement mentality” and culture of denial and pretense attached to it ignores these important questions in favor of empty slogans and isolationism. I hope that influential people can debate these topics honestly so that realistic solutions can be developed.
Hopefully we can break this culture, establish the problems and begin to solve them
Filed under: Black American Muslims, Convert Issues, Muslim Isolation, Sloganism over Reality, The Culture of Denial and Pretense
[...] Nelson on “the movement” Jump to Comments Everyone take a look at Tariq Nelson’s take on my series on the Salafi Dawah in the [...]
And this, folks, is why Tariq Nelson was voted “Best Thinker” for the 2006 Brass Crescent Awards!
Please expand on what convert families should do in the event of death. This troubles me more than you can imagine and all I can do is turn to my Lord and ask that he keep my husband and I alive long enough to raise our children properly. This is a cold cold world and an orphan of a Muslim convert is almost certainly doomed wa nauthoo billahi min thaliq.
Other than that, good post.
LET THE SUNNAH GO FORTH AND DON’T STOP IT! available in license plate holders, coffee mugs, tee shirts, calenders, and special orders
You put it succinctly and eloquently. I felt is was so bizarre that on Umar’s comments people were still going on tirade about this duat and that. What is a duat, btw, is that the same thing dai’e. They were basically missing what I saw was the big picture. The basic simple elements of Islam were not inculcated in the hearts of the members of these communities.
I say keep your dawah simple whatever you are calling to, Salafi or Traditional. People just need the basics to survive life in this world and so many people are getting burdened with more than they can handle or were meant to handle.
Umm Adam:
I have no idea what to tell you other than to make some good SOLID (not pretentious) friends. Read the post in that link for my thoughts
Um Abdillah:
“Duaat” is the plural for “daie”
As salamu alaykum,
UmmAdam, one of the most important things a woman can do is to ensure that she has the means to provide for her family WELL. For most of us that means a solid education and putting forth the effort to keep our skills updated. This can be done even while raising children and it’s an investment that must be made as a family i.e. husbands making sacrifices to ensure that wives can continue their educations and keep skills updated.
Whatever difficulties exist for single parents, those difficulties are magnified many times over for single parents with few or no marketable skills. If you have the means to earn money many doors open for you including quality Islamic schools that can help keep your children on the right path.
Well, it just occured to me that UmmAdam was probably referring to orphans of both parents not just one. That is the importance of forming close ties with other families and having these discussions with people you know and trust before death. It’s also more motivation to do major dawa work with your family.
assalaamu alaykum
it’s interesting that you mention the cult mentality. a brother i know was part of a fringe cult with all kinds of CRAZY stuff going on before he came to Islam. When all the cultishness started developing around the “Salafi da’wah” in the mid to late 90’s it was like deja vu for him so he immediately got away from it because he could see where it was going.
Umm Adam,
Another thing that needs to be done, other than friends and family relations, is to draw up a will and testament
Look here (http://monzer.kahf.com/)
for information and ready-made forms that were drawn up for this purpose.
As far as I know the forms on this site are the best out there in terms of legality and Shariah compliance.
You can have strong friends, but until you have something legally binding in your home country, your children might be taken as well as the savings you gathered for them.
Um Abdullah,
I agree with keeping it simply but additionally what we really need is to call to Allah, too many of these “labels” are in fact calling to just that a label or the person behind it.
We need is to call to Allah alone, cubbyholes are for kindergarten.
I forgot to say as well:
That it is this infatuation with the labels that blinded many commenting on Umar’s site from what you rightfully mentioned was “The big picture”
Black American Muslims have the potential to change this culture of under achievemment and single families that exist now. It can be a community that non muslims can look up to. Through this deen the prophet (pbuh) changed the circumstances and beliefs of a whole society and their culture, change for the better is what we should strife for. No one is in need of a cult but we need communities that can tackle real problems. At the moment the deen is being used as a veil to cover our personal failures and thus makes it easier to live under a culture of denial and pretense that Tariq has been talking about. African American Muslims can rise above their problems by creating a culture where secular education is regarded highly and appreciated. Islamic education alone cannot change the social problems.
Yes, Brother Hood, thats what I meant. Calling to Allah(swt), in a simple manner that takes into account the audience you are dealing with. Also instilling Islamic Adab. Imho, if a person establishes the five pillars, reads Quran and simple Islamic texts and learns how to behave as a decent human being (kind, hard working, honest, charitable) , you are better than the bulk of humanity (wallahu Alim). I have to remind myself constantly, Islam is so simple yet we make it so complicated.
I think the two biggest failings of the Salafi movement of the 1990s and early 2000s was that: 1) knowledge was based on constant appeals to authority; and 2) there was an obsession with hadith and a complete ignorance and/or disregard for fiqh.
I think most of the problems can be attributed to one of these two failings. For example, much of the bad blood between Salafis and other Muslims stemmed from the miliant and completely misguided anti-madhabism which was a function of their belief that hadith alone is sufficient to guide and, as one of them warned me years ago, usool al-fiqh is simply kalam. One can also see how they took a science limited to the classification of hadith — jarh wa ta’deel — and started applying to everyone in their communities.
Likewise, the in-fighting and schisms that appeared were a function of their exhaltation of certain individuals and the constant appeals to their authority. Any debate therefore became reduced to a case of so-and-so said such-and-such which naturally set the group on a course to self-implosion because even these figures are human and conflict between their authorities was always going to occur at some point. This is, however, all part of the cult mentality which you have mentioned.
interesting post tariq: i think it was bc of the same movement “cult” i started to feel so constrained in the progressive camp, and bounced.
second, in terms of the problems that converts face, i dont think we should continue to blame the older immigrant generation. fact of the matter is, that there is no doubt about the fact that a) they were/are foreign policy/overseas obsessed and b) they are quasi racist (at least at the subconscious level). why stop blaming them? well, because the fact is that they have failed, and even the next generation of immigrant children, like myself, do not look up to them as a model of behavior, certainly not on the matter of race. people like me saw very clearly how our “elders” treated kids when they married black converts (and oh my god, had dark babies with them). i have at least three family members who married black muslim and all are now somehow divorced (i’m sure family racism had nothing at all to do with it). still, the elder immigrants can no longer be blamed b/c they are worthless. instead, there needs to be some kind of connection between people like you (black muslim) and people like me (person who recognizes very clearly how much shit everyone but the white convert has to go through).
i’m here to say, i will try to do my best to help, and i have no problems taking advice, hearing suggestions. in fact, it troubles me to no end that i can easily find white converts to write on the eteraz frontpage (we have one and likely another one is coming on) but not a single latino or black convert. can you help explain why that is? please don’t tell me its cuz i’m racist. methinks the answer is lack of communication.
but its not just lack of communication. i know there is another problem. the reluctance on the part of latino and black muslims to work with, be cool with, and ultimately trust, the children of those from whose parents they been burned. for example, i know for a fact that for the large part american black and colored converts dont trust me. there is always a cover up for that distrist: ae is too yuppie (despite growing up near indian reservations and pritchard alabama); ae’s got no deen (despite studying my ass off in life with any shaykh i could find, whether it was mukhtar maghrawi or sherman jackson); ae’s out to make a buck. i’ve seen comments on websites where people will opt to hold an opinion, *merely because* i think the opposite. maybe people need to stop judging my deen, leave that to God, and see what we can do together, as Muslims.
my point is very simple: people like yours truly, humbly, are willing to do whatever we can to help converts and black muslims feel part of the brotherhood of islam (cuz I sure as hell want to feel that brotherhood too, my one to trip to isna i felt like crap b/c i found out that freaking isna takes place on the same days and same time as the WD convention). however, there are a lot of trust issues, and they are not all erected from “my” side of the fance.
in short, the older immigrant generation has passed, and their children saw what went wrong, and want to mend the broken fences. i assert that you’re wrong to think that its all rich immigrant kids on one side, and poor black kids on the other. its not like that man. until one month ago i used to rock a fendi and drop $200 on jeans. now im collecting unemployment with no job prospects in sight cuz i got screwed by a bunch of white boys, and no parents to help me. and even that job that i had, i only got after taking up thousands of thousands of dollars of debt while working through school. my point is, everyone gets economically screwed; that is our state, not as muslims, but as non-whites in a society that is engineered to advance white interests (check out the racial contract by charles mill). black muslims need to stop thinking they are they only ones who get shafted in life.
as a sign of my good faith, im going to ask you to nominate three writers (yes you can include yourself) for potential frontpage status at Eteraz.Org. on this a fairly average week of hits we’ve had 25,000 page views and its not even sunday yet. there’s a lot of space for great exposure within and without the Muslim community for anyone selected. In conjunction with your advice I will inshallah pick one of the nominees and they can go buck on the site since I don’t regulate frontpagers. Feel free to nominate via email. if other people want to nominate someone, they know where to find me.
salam tariq: i put that up on my site too
http://eteraz.org/story/2007/2/3/15214/17678
As salamu ‘alaykum,
Akhi ‘Ali, I agree with most of what you said, and Tariq too. Obviously I’m not a sociology expert, but I did happen to notice that the younger generation of ‘arab and pakistani muslims in America are much less inclined toward seperatism and racism amongst muslims than the older ones but that probably varies from case to case, as does the level that second generation muslims practice Islam on in America in general.
I did want to say that I accepted Islam due to listening to rap music and reading the autobiography of Malcolm X initially.
I used to hate white people with a passion and mind you, I am white.
I spend my youth with extreme self hatred that I still struggle with along with a sense of humiliation and degradation that comes along with the concept that in general white men aren’t real men (in general).
I always hoped and still do that in Islam we will get rid of thinking of ourselves in terms of race which is why, when I was in Jordan, I practically forgot about race issues and nationalism and that was such a breath of fresh air and was probably the most difficult transitional aspect of coming back to the States, was being re-exposed to nationalist muslims whether arab, pakistani or black.
Even though, of course, their is racism in Jordan as is known, and I had major problems with many brothers there about that and almost got into fights about it (because I told brothers that I love black women and they used to say that I wanted to marry an ‘abdah, which would infuriate me because I get much more defensive when someone offends black women than about anything bad someone could ever say about my own person), nonetheless, arab nationlism was practically non existent there.
I even had a very good jamaican friend who was from britian and 90% of the people who knew him (mostly adults) respected him more than just about any of the tullab al ‘ilm due to his righteous conduct (he was maybe the most well mannered, cheerful friend I ever had) in spite of him being black.
The looked at him as being different than their stereotypical image of a western black man and treated him like he wasn’t even black subsequently.
The point I’m trying to make is, that I wish we could work on a way where, instead of figuring out how to nurture seperation and build the community off of it, how we could rather learn to overcome it and of course that requires addressing the it’s existence and the issues that are related to it, like our brother Tariq has done, but I hope we don’t lose site of the goal of muslim unity and not judging eachother by our races or looks.
There is almost nothing that bothers me more and makes me feel worse about myself than going to a community, a black community in America or an arab community in Jordan and being treated like I don’t belong there or like I’m from some other planet due to a circumstance which I didn’t choose for myself (being white).
I didn’t ask to be born to the family I was born to or the color I was born as none of you did and I wish, espcecially as muslims , but also as human beings in general, there was a way to look past this.
I have a lot of self hatred, but al hamdulillah, I have black hair and dark eyes, which makes it less severe and I don’t think I’m very ugly. Many people wouldn’t even know for sure I was white if they saw me, but it still makes me feel real bad about myself and that’s mainly because oftentimes it’s something that I’m judged by and causes me to feel seperated or distant from the people I most want to feel close to and loved by.
Allahi baarak feekum.
Ma’as salamah,
Yousef Abus Safar
One last side point, it hurts me to feel like I’m being blamed for the actions of other people that I have no control over, like white kuffar oppress black and arab muslims and then I’m viewed as an outcast from the community when I think you miss out on the fact that white muslims are often totally outcast from every imaginable community and are stereotyped after Yahya Walker thus we are in some cases hated not only by black people but also white people.
I’ve spent many years feeling like a total outcast, but I don’t really care about white people hating me as I’m not too crazy about them (except the muslims) but it hurts to go to a black neighbourhood and be looked at like they think I’m the next John Walker just because I’m white and have a beard and also be hated by all those people who I only want good for while black muslims are oftentimes looked at like heroes amongst them. I feel like I’m hated by everyone just for being born and it’s kind of like, your damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I can’t change my skin color and nor do I really want to as this is how Allah, in His wisdom, made me.
Sidi Yusuf,
Ive seen your posts on SF, and now here, I think I know you. I used to live in Atlanta as well. What Masjid do you frequent if you dont mind me asking?
As salamu ‘alaykum,
Ya Akhi Darqawi, I was actually only in Atlanta a very short time (I plan on going back as soon as possible insha’allah) so it would be a big coincidence if we did meet, but I was going to the Community Masjid in the West End (Jamil al Amin’s community) while I was there.
Let me know if we met insha’allah.
Allahi baarak feek.
Ma’as salamah,
Yousef
Wahhabi, would you happen go by the use name muhaqqiq on a forum?
Sidi Yousef, in that case we probably have not met, i used to live in Atlanta, but moved in 2000. I used to live near Masjid al-Faruq when Mawlana Abdul Ghaffar was Imam (now in Laurenceville). I used to visit west end on occasion and had warm relations with Imam Jamil (fakk Allah asrahu). What going on with the Salafis there (i used to be salafi and know alot of those brothers there)?
1. Dissolve the seperate movements.
2. One Ummah.
3. Learn knowledge, practice, teach.
4. Victory.
I don’t know too many of the salafi’s there personally.
I know there are two masajid, masjid salaf as salih and masjid at tawhid.
Masjid at Tawhid has a lot of classes going on in tafsir and al ajurumiyyah, and Qur’an recitiation.
The Imam graduated from madinah and he is really nice, masha’allah (Allah yahfidhuh).
As for Masjid Salaf as Salih, they are generally really harsh and harbour bad suspicions about just about any muslim. They assume worsth about most muslims unless they go out of their way to prove that they take all the same positions they do on manhaj issues. I met a couple brothers who go there and some of them are on varying levels of extremism and harshness in terms of their manners and harbouring bad suspicions but I heard Aqil Walker was doing a lot of good there and calling non muslims to Islam etc. and they basically ran him out of town (figuratively speaking).
But the brothers at masjid at Tawhid seem like really good brothers and there are a lot more balanced than the brothers at masjid salaf as salih.
I never got to pray in Masjid al Faruq. I hope to go there when I go back. Also Shaykh Jamal ad Din Hysaw is teaching, I think in the West End (I can’t wait to go back , I miss it so much).
And I heard about some other good things going on there as far as Islamic Education. It seems like it’s becoming one of the best places in the states to learn the din which wasn’t what I was initially expecting but may Allah make it so, and even better, aameen.
And Tub, I agree with what you said completely. That’s pretty much where I’m at now.
Ma’as salamah,
Yousef Abus Safar
Br. Ali, you ask, “i can easily find white converts to write on the eteraz frontpage (we have one and likely another one is coming on) but not a single latino or black convert. can you help explain why that is?”
All I can say is that most converts are closer to their fitrah than most born-Muslims. What I mean is that your blog offers a progressive forum, and many reverts are trying to escape from a religion that was progressively corrupted by people (i.e. Christianity). They want purity and they want something that makes them different from the non-Muslims. Not necessarily in the way they look or act, but in their beliefs, in their visions and in their perspectives. They want the Sunnah to effect their lives, not to be shelved for convenience and the ‘modern’ world. Of course you can be a very good Muslim citizen of the West, but some people unfortunately think that they have to somehow adjust their religion for it. While the absolutes of many of the converts are enshrined by the texts and by the scholars of the past, your forum preaches in mostly relatives and little of absolutes.
So, why would a convert run from one confusion to yet another?
P.S. I can’t tell you why whites may be more open to progressives than AA. All I can grasp is that many whites were attracted to Islam through sufi channels that were more open to multi-faith approaches to God. Like Schwartz for instance. First confusion, then Tawheed, but the confusion didn’t completely disappear.
On the other hand, many AA became Muslims on a more basic, “la illaha ilallah level”– as was the call of the Prophet, whose initial followers were mostly poor and desolate. So, their Tawheed was strongest since it was the first to be established. Hence, they reject anything that is alien to the basics of Islam, one such concept is called modernization of Islam. Wallahualam.
as salamu`alaykum,
I’ve been so depressed since reading Umar Lee’s blog (esp. the comments to follow)..that now I must do something to fix this situation. I’m willing to help you guys out with whatever structure you come up with to help converts and to help them have a stable life in Islam. Can we build something positive from these posts…..when i was reading Umar’s mail, subhanAllah it was like he was describing the last 12 years I have spent in Islam (even though I was born Muslims but started practicing 12 years ago)…
Tariq, you should have my email with this post, please email me with anything you need or start with…
wassalam
Salam Tariq,
>>Think about why Latin and white converts are able to “pass” more easily and assimilate into the larger Muslim community
But, I *don’t want* to pass into the immigrant side of the house! Let’s make sure that the brothers and sisters don’t automatically assume that and act cold towards the white and latino converts and even the emerging 2nd generation, the children of converts. In the end, its us as Americans who must stand together and take care of ourselves whatever our race is, because no one else will give a damn about us.
Very well put. That’s all I can think of to say, because all the folks above me said it all.
I would have to dissagree, however, that white converts have an easier time fitting into the muslim community than black converts, depending where. When an african american becomes muslim, even if he or she experiences abandonment from family and friends, they can find people of the exact same backround with very similar experiences to belong to at the masjid who have no reason not to accept them as brothers, friends, and in marriage. But when a whirte persons friends and family leaves him or her, yet neither the immigrant communities nor african americans really accept them, sometimes they can be the lonliest of people.
Everyone will say “yes we are all brothers it makes no difference”, yet in reality, and I repeat depends where, but if in reality that’s where the brotherhood ends and nobody will invite the brother or sister to their homes, and the brothers can’t find people willing to marry them, then how do they have an easier time?
This is especially true for converts who themselves may come from less common backrounds such as Greek or Jewish families, and did not grow up in mainstream American culture, and so seem out of place wherever they find themselves, even if they are more than willing to marry someone of a completely different backround and culture, will tend to be tolerated rather than truly accepted.
AS
Shukran Akhi, for the insight. There are some things I wanted to discuss since you opened up the platform, jazakAllahu kharyan. Let me begin by saying a bit about my history you so you get a grap of where I am coming from. I am Puerto Rican, born in North Philadelphia which I thought was Puerto Rico for a bit until I went to the island and found that I was a New York Rican to the people of the Island. I grew up in North Philly in various economic arenas so I had my taste of the ghetto avoided the projects and got to live in the burbs in any case I have been robbed at gun point by Ricans and Blacks and discriminated against by whites and others but appreciated living in a safe envirnoment when I found one. Why do I say this. I say this one because from a Rican who has grown up with blacks and a light skin Rican too I feel you but there are some qualifications I would put out there to what you say.
This Ramadan I did a tour a dawah tour and spoke about the plight of Muslims from African American origins and their place in Islam and spoke about the need for unity. I see you read Sherman Jackson’s work on Islam and the Blackman but there are some things we have to come to grasp so we build on what he contributed. First, we are all oppressed peoples and even throw whites into that to some degree. We have issues and we also are the cause to some problems.
The transition from Black Nationalism to Islam to Sunni practice was a bit rough for a lot of blacks in that leadership either broke down or became inept but what I am mad about is that as a student of Afrocentricity and by the way Puerto Ricans contributed to that too really I would say we left the struggle and blacks left the struggle. The energy to build community got eaten by social problems that are partly due to racism and partly to a breakdown of family structure and this happened post 60’s and then after crack hit in the 90’s we saw a weird mix of social proablems in America’s cities.
All in all we have to realize our brothers from over seas were colonized so we have to be strategic in the way we handle all the problems facing Muslims, all Muslims. There was someone who mentioned whites and latins assimilating. I would take the brother to task on that in that it is an accident that I am light skin and not my fault people are prejudice but I will say many brothers tried to deal with the black community and find the social probelms overwhelming and others are ignorant, arrogant and mixed what Islam teaches about brotherhood.
But I will say I am mad at the black community in that I will say where are the leaders and why is that those who come from the community are torn apart. The issue is one of self-transformation, empowerment and knowledge and caring more than it is about race although race and discrimination and prejudice are factors.
Us brothers from America have to recapture the community building theme that was present early on with Muslim in America this is wajib is we will move beyond and we need to build leadership and work with other groups but deal with local issues. The problems of the immigrant are real and so are our problems but where we are not excused at is that we have been oppressed for 500 year on the Latino end and about 200 on the African American end so we need to work towards building. Where are the El Hajj’s today who with little knowledge of Islam changed people we have way more knowledge on islam then he but the difference he understood, practiced and sacrificed what he knew.
We have to look at ourselves and change and change the community but we cant afford to split the community even the Nation of Islam from what I have seen does not go with that program so what about Sunnis?
Tariq is on to something here. We are faced with issues such as how to protect black Muslim children from gangs and drugs, much less identity issues. Yet we are being told that these issues should be ignored? Come on man!
Akhi, I don’t think anyone’s saying that they should be ignored. It’s of the utmost importance to deal with them and address them and give them much more attention, but what, at least I, was trying to say, is that we shouldn’t make this a reason for Islam in America to be seperatist, where you have different communities based on race or nationality. This isn’t the way of the prophet.
If anything, you should encourage brothers of other backgrounds to help with these issues in anyway possible. I know that I would be glad to help with these types of issues once I get my freedom back (don’t want to get into my circumstance right now, but it’s an issue of ability presently).
I would even go to ‘arab an pakistani masajid and encourage brothers to help in any way possible once we have some kind of plan or approach drawn out on exactly what we can do to help.
But I just think it’s very bad to have seperatist communities in Islam and if you look at the prophet and his companions you would see how far this is from Islam. The prophet was very serious in warning the muslims against any kind of qawmiyyah (nationalism or tribalism or in other words, just being down for their own people so to speak regardless of other muslims).
I actually have a book on qawmiyyah by Shaykh ibn Baz which I should read and maybe I could come back here with some points from it, wallahu a’alam.
Ma’as salamah,
Yousef
Wanna Help: I also have a topic on my blog but it is in a different vein. It re: to the split that Umar is talking about, and touches on some of the subjects here. So, I am not sure what your area of desired help is, feel free to check this out too:
Let the Healing Being
-Amad
Musings of a Muslim Mind
Reflections on Salafism’s rise and fall
Umar Lee recently posted a ten-part history on the rise and fall of the “salafi da’wah” in the USA (last post, with comments and links to the other nine, here). The whole series made me thoroughly glad that I was…
Assalamu alaikum, well, speaking for myself as a white convert, I did not come to Islam through the “sufi chanels” that has been referred to above. And to my knowledge, neither did the white converts that I’ve come across in the 6 years that I’ve been a Muslim. However, I’m sure that some white converts came to Islam in that way. However, while there maybe “sufis” who believe in “multiple approcahes to faith”, etc., no orthodox tariqa of tasawuf would say that you can be a sufi but not necessarily a Muslim. In fact, a “real” tariqa, if I can call it that, would make it a requirement that anyone joining would need to first understand, uphold, and apply orthodox principles of Islam. There is not “multiple approcahes to faith” here.
The thign is, no matter what label you attach to yourself, the goal should be to get closer to Allah, to try to be a good Muslim, and to live your live following the example of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
Ginny, I think what was meant by ‘multiple approaches to faith’ is actually what you described when you said, ” The thign is, no matter what label you attach…” This is the attitude or methodology I believe that allows a person to feel that their are ‘multiple approaches to faith’.
Ginny, since it is a little cumbersome leaving comments on your blog, I would have to say that it is quite interesting that you have views expressed on your blog that you formed solely by being on one side. I get that you believe that you “luckily” found the “traditionalists” and you were saved from the “salafi” mantra. If you feel so, sister, good for you. If you stay away from the major innovations that most traditionalists in fact do, you’ll do fine inshallah, I wish you the best. But misusing a series of articles that were intended to shed light upon historical circumstances mostly in America, and discussing an internal implosion of sorts, is a bit opportunistic, to say the least.
If you get deeper in your ‘traditionalist’ ways, you will find that schisms and divisions have happened throughout the ages, and will continue exist in every group, sect or methodology. How do you think will we get to the 73 sects? Within the traditionalists, you will find many that consider others as being great deviants.
Just because Umar has offered his historical perspective on what happened to a section of the people following the salafi dawah is not intended to be a judgment upon the manhaj itself. Don’t you find it interesting that it is not the manhaj he criticizes, but the adherents. Almost akin to bad Muslims representing Islam. In spite of all the pains, Umar continues to adhere to the dawah, free from inquisitions that others embarked upon. Since I imagine you took great pains to come to Islam, I hope you will continue to study the different methodologies before you criticize them. You may find that perhaps many of your impressions were misinformed.
Musings of a Muslim Mind
Amad, I’m not sure that you are getting it. We gave our lives so much to the movement that we destroyed our own lives in the process and were left wondering what happened after all of it. We got into crap marriages, did not improve ourselves and some are consistently in need of a handout. Living in the bubble has hurt us and we are desperately trying to put the pieces back together. I think that your inviting us back into the bubble is not helping matters
No offense Amad because I understand where you are coming from but a lot of us have a lot of personal things in our lives to put back together right now and we can’t put these things down again. We have to not only start all over with our lives, but we are in the hole.
Ok, let me get this straight. Black men are at the top of every negative social ill and certain Muslim “movements” think dealing with this is of “no benefit”? And blacks themselves have been convinced of this?
Ashamed, you should be ashamed of yourself! I don’t want to say get over it, but dayum GET OVER IT! Move on! You are not promised tomorrow. How long will it take you to get out of that hole? What if you never get out? Nobody is saying to neglect your personal issues, but you must turn to Allah, get your deen together. What will your excuse be when you are standing before your Lord, barefoot, naked, and uncircumcised? I think Tariq has offered some interesting perspectives (life in a bubble, cultural of denial and pretense, etc)but I am sad to see that some are running with it and using it as their excuse for slacking off in the deen. It doesnt seem like he is encouraging people to shave the beard and take off their hijab (outward appearances I know) and I seriously doubt (at least I hope) that he hasn’t let up on his Islamic practices. I think he wants us to see the whole picture and that is what Islam is….a COMPLETE WAY OF LIFE that is applicable in any place, day, and age. Pull yourself together man, before it’s too late.
Brother Tariq, I don’t know man…I’m not telling you how to do your thing but maybe some disclaimers are warranted. You mention the State of The Muslims in America and call us to discuss our issues, but it seems like some do not know how to contemplate and ponder. Instead, when they read of you and your analysis of Muslim marriages, unemployment, lack of education, etc they use it as a scapegoat to say, “see this is why I’m such a loser.” Perhaps you can not only remind us of our failures but remind us of our duties as Muslims too, because some people just can not handle the truth!
Assalamu alaikum, firstly *sigh*, when I was referring to labels, I was referring to labels as it pertains to orthodox Muslims, wither it be “Salafi” or “traditional”, etc., but of course, it was taken in a wrong way, I guess, becuase I’ve put myself out there as a “traditional Muslim”.
Secondly, although Umar Lee’s post was a jumping off point for me to post my own thoughts, I have also expressed these same sorts of views before and alluded to such on my blog! And in fact, I have linked to some of the sites / authors which led me to my conclusions. I don’t doubt that there are “traditional Muslims” who are “deviant”. And whatever the case, when you have a whole “movement” or “methodology” which seems to be founded solely upon calling others “deviant”, that just seems like a problem to me! If you want to try to “follow the way of the salaf”, then that is definitely a noble goal, but to them, also, imply that other groups of people are not doing the same thing is a little bit arrogant to me! And once your movement finishes “exposing” all of the “deviant scholars”, as I mentioned, who is left but to start declaring your own scholars deviant, as it were.
Prhpas if the focus would have been not only on gaining knowledge, learning the basics of Islam, but also on purification of onw’s heart (oops guess that’s a deviant sufi concept sorry), then perhaps the “Salafi dawa” might not have had the rpboems that it had. But when you ahve soemthing that has become based on telling others how wrong *they* are, and not working on your own character, then there are going to be problems.
And ys, I consider msyelf “lucky”, if you want to call it that, that I didn’t get caught up in the “Salafi” problems, nor in the “traditioanlist” sects, you refer to, though I dind’t see you name any examples!
Anyway, if you care to, look through the archvies of my blog and you’ll see that I’ve discussed this issue before, and I by no means used Umar’s post for my own gians, though whatever “gains” I might have had I don’t know.
Thank you Umm Adam. Actually I am trying to get my deen together and I still APPEAR to be quite the salafi mind you. I could probably even get married with the right steps.
How long will it take me to get out of this hole? Sister, I am in my late 30s and have the skills of an 18 year old with three children to take care of and mounting debts that I am trying to pay off at the same time. This is the hole that I am referring to. I can’t afford to make a bayan and start going back to the telelink sessions and conferences and whatnot. It would be so easy to do that but I wasted too much time doing that and now I have to step up and be a man. It is not just a matter of “getting over it”. It is a day by day process that I hope that people younger will not fall into. You know how hard it is to find a low skilled job at 38? They want young people! I don’t want you to fel sorry for me I dont want others to be in my position. By all means practice, but don’t live in that bubble
Yes, I have had some problems and still stuggling to beat others. Not once have I gotten a message from Tariq, Umar or anyone else that I should stop practicing Islam. I could have done like other ‘on the haqq’ brothers and just abandoned my responsibilities and still gotten praise from the people, but people like Tariq have inspired me to not do that. It is because of that day you refer to that I am Ashamed. It is because of that day that I am trying to get the debts off my neck. Running around feeling proud of myself and beating my chest about my salafiyyah is not going to take care of my kids.
But Umm Adam, I’m used to the “you’re a sorry ass man” speech. It’s something that brothers that are deserately trying to put their lives together are trashed and dead beat Dads are on the speakers circuit. No, I’m not perfetct
Funny that Ashamed mentioned debts. A few brothers (salafi and other than salafi) owed me some money and never bothered to pay it back.
Ashamed, go for it bro, may Allah make things easy for you. UmmAdam, i think your comment was really out of order, and don’t take this personally, but i think these salafi pie-in-the-sky speeches (not just by you) have got to stop. They do NOT help people get focused back on dealing with the day-to-day problems that they’re facing.
Wali,
the things you mentioned are “unbeneficial” because they are not in the books. nothing would make me happier than to see more of us blacks get their act together and live responsible lives because it would make the muslim community better as a whole. i commend those who are speaking up and it is encouraging that some of the more intelligent and open-minded blacks are starting to question the current paradigm
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I don’t think Umm Adam was trying to be harsh. Her heart was in the right place and I believe she was trying to show the brother that it is not the end of the world and that he needs to move. Believe it or not, some people need harshness to motivate them. I remember talking to my Ex once and he was feeling depressed because he had been in school on and off for over 10 years and still does not have a college degree yet. I tried to comfort him by saying that it would be okay and he cut me short and said that I need to stop babying him and tell him that he screwed up so that he can use that as motivation to get his act together. Who knows, maybe Umm Adam’s comment opened that brother’s eyes up…
Brother Ashamed, I know what you’re going through but I must say that Umm Adam is right and that we do need to move on. When I first got divorced, I literally thought my life was over. My family and friends helped me keep my head up and told me to focus on my kids instead of wallowing in self-pity. I feel 1000 times better but I must admit I do go through my ups and downs. I wonder if I’ll able to support my kids financially (right now I’m staying with family), how will my kids be affected growing up without their father (Dang I feel like crying right now so I’ll just stop…)
Trust in Allah (swt) and everything will be okay Insha Allah.
Amad, I’m not sure that *you* get it.
We could easily say the same thing about the ’salafi’ persecutions of ‘traditionals’ if you wanted, or the deviance of murdering (yes, it happened, abdul-Wahab’s men murdered Shafi’i pilgrims visiting the Prophet, and instigated a rebellion and slaughter of Ottoman soldiers, and were the fatwas used to justify murder in Mecca and Madinah several times, as well as what you’ll see on amreekan.wordpress.net (where Zawahiri praises the ‘tawheed’ of the ’salafi jihadists’… etc…
You go on about AHM and ‘deviant traditionalists’ - we’ll continue to note that you, for all your proclamations about how salafis are fighting the ‘takfiri,’ you are spending far more time defending their methodology and ZERO time arguing with amreekan or those groups… I notice these things, and await your knowledgeable response.
Do notice that what Sh. Faiz, and the other, and worse material that comes out of Saudi Arabia, wasn’t uttered by ’sufis’ or ‘traditionalists’ - and then please clean your own house before you come and condemn others. End of story.
Ashamed & Ginny, it is obvious that you have not read what I have offered on my own blog (See here), and in my comments to Umar Lee. I do GET IT, and I have been screaming out to the other some of the other brothers to get out of the bubble (pls do read my comments on Umar’s blog). My voice is in unison with Umar’s, Kashif’s and other brothers and sisters’ voices that we need to get past “who’s on” and “who’s off” not only because it does not have any benefit, it puts the dawah in a vicious spin, where the ons and the offs becomes the sole cause!
What gets to me is that instead of taking lessons from the internal implosion that Umar described, the so-called “traditionalists” want to throw in their own version of how it “really” happened. And then take it as a spin for their own preachings. That is my only beef, and so I really don’t quite understand the tangents you both have taken my comments into.
Ginny, I don’t doubt that you have written “traditionalist” favoring entries before, I am simply referring to what that has to do anything with Umar’s historical perspectives?
Finally, the problem of the marriage-divorce-merry-go-round was really quite limited to the Philly/Jersey area. If you look at the du’aat, you will find only those in this area that went into that social phenomena. I am not being racist (I love the AA brothers as much as any others), it is just a matter of fact. The majority of the shayookh were not involved in this, and several communities upon the Sunnah did not have these social ills. Case in point is Houston. So, to extend the Philly/NJ case to the entire dawah in general is blatant stereotyping, unjust and inaccurate.
P.S. Many of the discussions in the comments are similar to what has already been said on Umar’s blog. I believe that Br. Tariq was going somewhere else with this particular entry. Unfortunately, his different take has been dragged in a different direction. I hope that can be corrected because duplication is boring
Amad,
I really think you are idealizing Houston. Granted, its nothing on the level of Philly/NJ/NY. But I think because you were secluded in the suburbs you really don’t know what is happening in the lower income areas of town. Go to the neighborhoods near madrassa Islamia where so many low income Muslims live and you would not believe what is going on with AA, Desi, African etc. And, lets see how shall I put this, things have occurred with leadership in Houston that one can put in the marriage/divorce cycle but I will leave it at that. It happens, what I notice is that so much religious rhetoric is spewed but things actually dealing with real life are not taught, this is a nationwide problem so I don’t think its right to write it off as a NE isolated phenomenon.
And not to bring up sectarian issues, but this is what drew me to Traditional Islam. The scholars were very educated in the realities of human nature and can communicate the Quran and Sunnah in a way that affects your heart, its not just for an external show.
Amad, you said:
What gets to me is that instead of taking lessons from the internal implosion that Umar described, the so-called “traditionalists” want to throw in their own version of how it “really” happened. And then take it as a spin for their own preachings.
You must realize that many of the so called ”traditionalists” (and i dislike that term even though people will group me into it) are former Salafis themselves. Not all of them were just ”into personalities” and ”ignorant about the reality of the salafi dawah” as is being often repeated elsewhere. Of course if someone is Salafi, then it makes perfect sense that they would say that because they think that they have found the 100 percent truth about the Din and does not entertain the possibility that it might not be right in everything.
As for myself, I used to be a Salafi, in fact I was even an Imam at one of the Salafi Masjids and had my own online lectures. I had direct contact with a group of the major Salafi scholars (one of them considered from the ”Kibar” who is now dead-rahimahullah).
But you are right, some of the ”traditionalists” are putting their own theories out as to why it imploded, and as a first hand witness, I dont agree with their assertions (well some, but not all by any means). I am aware of how it really happened as I was a direct victim of SP myself, being personally attacked and slandered by Abu Khadijah (or is it Aboo Khadeejah?), and the others there in their own writings.
This whole tangent is being framed as a: ”yes, the salafis had bad manners, but Salafiyah is the truth, so don’t leave it because of their manners.” While that is true for many, in that they left the salafis primarily because of their manners, there are still a good number of them that left it due to convictions that not everything that is claimed to be the way of the Salaf actually is. That might have been expedited by bad experiences as well, but all of us are different and each of us have our own unique stories to tell.
I really get the feeling that the bad blood between the salafis and the ”traditionalists” is only increased when the discussion takes place online. Perhaps you will agree. I have moderate Salafi friends that are probably alot like your self, and we get along fine. We acknowledge our differences, and are able to maintain the Ukhuwah that is asked of us in this Din.
Salafis are not a monolith, and neither are the ”traditionalists”, and if all of us can understand that and not paint broad strokes it will go a long way in fostering better relations.
jazakum Allah khaira
Shattered, all I’m saying is that I can’t afford to get back into the bubble as I have wasted too much of my life
Ashamed,
Continue to do what you are doing. Acknowledging the issues and throwin’ down the red challenge flag. Someone has to say enough with the slogans and pretending that this highly stylized, romanticised, and superficial understanding of what deen is can actually teach boys how to be men. MEN. Because everyone who has a book or who can browse the Internet or who has sat through a tele-link feels that they can guage someone else’s level of practice, and therefore give unwarranted, pompous advice (meaning more slogans and catchphrases). You have single, 20 something year old young whippersnappers trying to give ‘naseehah’ to grown ass men with wives, kids and bills because they have ingested the slogans and therefore, are qualified to solve YOUR problems, albeit via theory - not experience. You have 2nd generation immigrant boys trying to give advice to 40 something year old African American MEN who have experienced a lifetime of struggle in this deen and in this country.
“This is what you African American brothers should do/say/think/practice/feel/etc….”
“Converts are like this and that and blah blah blah…”
Man please. Some of us don’t have the cultural and social cushion of an Islamic heritage to soften our fall. We cannot afford to be bubblized. Who is going to teach these boys to be men…the ‘ulama?? Men. The communities across this country are filled with niggas who are using Islam as an excuse to remain niggas. And they didn’t know what it meant to be men before Islam, and based on all of the conceptual and totally irrelevent advice they receive in email lists, conferences,and the masjids, they never will.
TSRP…Go ‘head with your bad self!
Rashad, that’s the plan man. I hope that others can learn from the mistakes of people like me. There are many like me
TSRP - Shut up and put up…Maaan! Really, put your money where your mouth is. They talk about the armchair jihadis, what about you? Why can’t you help the boys to be men instead of just validating thier feelings? They get enough of that already, its called a self-fulling prophecy. Please don’t take this the wrong way, I’m NOT calling you out. I would like to see solutions to problems not just rants.
Umm Adam, TSRP is right and he is calling for men to be men and not the boys that go around and spout this or that “manhaj”. The people that are validating the dead beats’ feelings are going around talking about the “manhaj” and finding the next wedding prospect. The solution is for these guys to take care of the children they sire and learn some damn responsibility. Do the things that men do. Why can’t people understand this simple concept? How about teaching one’s son to be a man? These are things men do…not just talk about the manhaj
Shut up and put up…shut up and put up!?!
How many times do you post a reply to every topic that gets posted here? It seems to me that you’re doing more talking than anyone around here (causing me to wonder who exactly should do the shutting and putting). I posted a reply to the brother to cancel out the tired and cliched ‘advice’ he was getting from people who don’t have a clue what it means to be an African American man with the responsibilties that come with being a man. Do you!?!? Do tell sister. Inform us brothers what it means to be a man. At the same time trying to balance that with practicing deen to the best of one’s ability. And what the hell is shutting up and putting up?? The fact that my wife is happy with me?? The fact that we’ve been together longer than some of these bloggers have been Muslim? The fact that I have two boys to raise (into MEN) and a daughter to boot?? The fact that I’m trying my damnest to raise my kids in this society as Muslims who not only can experience and live life as Muslims - but also navigate the society that they are a part of - SUCCESSFULLY?? What exactly is shutting up and putting up? I’m responsible for my family. This is the goal of the post in case you missed it lady. Instead of niggas setting themselves up to be ‘du’aat’ and pompously giving lectures and naseehah all of the damn time thinking this is what it means to establish Islam - they are neglecting the boys at home who still don’t have a daddy and as a result will never quite learn how to be a GOOD father and husband- and the wife at home who is lonely, despressed, and unsatisfied - in all matters. But I guess the answer is to whisk ourselves away to some desert utopia never never land and bury our heads in the sand and wait for death.
TSRP, what the hell is wrong with everybody? All the facts you just mentioned are the very reasons why ?I said shut up and put up! I thought that you expressed yourself very well and was nominating your hardheaded tail to put it into action. Everybody iss o sensitive they don’t know when someone is supporting them. In other words shut up and put up meant…gee dude I thought you made some really profound statements and I would love to see you like start a boys club or something.
Y’all gone make my jahiliyah come out up in here…dag!
…and one more thing. I now see more clearly what my husband means when he says that people from Chicago are ruder than people from the South. I tend (even more so with kids and being busy and not able to fully explain myself) to just put my thoughts out there. I forget that the person I’m writing to may not know me or how I am saying what I am saying.
Anyway, I thought this was the ‘keep it real’ blog, not The Diary For Angry Black Men.
Opps I did it again!
Akhi Darqawi, “As for myself, I used to be a Salafi, in fact I was even an Imam at one of the Salafi Masjids and had my own online lectures. I had direct contact with a group of the major Salafi scholars (one of them considered from the ”Kibar” who is now dead-rahimahullah).”
To be honest, one can have a little masjid in a garage and put up online lectures in a matter of few clicks. My point is that you have mentioned this on Umar’s blog as well, as if it is to be some sort of referendum on the validity of your views. I am not saying that you weren’t all that, neither am I accusing of you boasting. And not to be misunderstood, I am not saying this as a disrespect as well. However, I am interested in knowing why this is such a secret… if you have no regrets then you should gladly inform all of us who you are, so that the information may be verified, or we could understand how much you actually garnered in the knowledge of the manhaj. We don’t know of a single medium to high level Dai’ee who has left the manhaj. I mean on the net, I could come one day with a different name and say that I was the biggest ashari sheikh of a big masjid in xyz, and now I have converted to salafiyah… its easy to make big claims. I have to repeat that I have no reason to distrust you, but in this age, everything needs verification, because it is easy to be anyone or no one on the internet.
And in conclusion, I have many friends who are not “on the haqq”
… To be honest, in this world we are in, where most Muslims don’t even pray, let alone have the “correct” manhaj, if manhaj becomes the discriminating factor for friendship, then I am afraid we’ll have few friends, if any! I think most of us agree that our priorities have been muddled up for too long… its time to move on…
Assalamu alaikum, you know I really don’t like the “traditionalist” label either. And at this point, I think the best thing for me to do (while I’m talking about purifying my heart, etc.), is to just leave this disucssion. Someone who considers themselves a “Salafi”, is probably not going to agree with someone who follows a madhhab and possibly a tariqa as well. So possibly, we could just focus on what we *do* agree on, and try our best not to “expose our deviancies” as it were. As I initially said before, it’s the methodology, as I udnerstand it, that I have misgivings about, however, if someone follows the Salafi dawa, it sure would be awful of me to “expose them for thier deviancy”, etc. Because that is not how we should act as Muslims toward each other. So I’m going to just leave this alone. I can just agree to disagree, and if anyone wants to “proclaim my deviancy”, or whatever you want to do, it’s not on my anymore, becuase I’ve finished with it! We don’t agree but that doesn’t mean that I should forget what it means to have good adab and display good character, and all of that good stuff. Besides, arguing and disputation isn’t going to get us anywhere except in a downward spiral, and given Umar’s series of posts, perhaps that is soemthing we can all learn from them, and do our best not to repeat the same mistakes.
Umm Adam,
You should have just followed my lead and said “Go ‘head with your bad self!” because I honestly took your statement the same way Rashad did. I was like what the heck has gotten into you. Then I remembered your post from earlier in the day where you said you were peeved (http://ummadam.wordpress.com/2007/02/05/i-am-so-peeved/) because you missed out on a free dessert at Applebees. Then it all made sense.
One small, but inshallah important step for increased inclusion of converts @ AlMaghrib/TDC
A total of 15 scholarships are being offered for converts only for the next two classes in NJ & MD. Please see the following for the announcement:
AlMaghrib Scholarships for Converts
We can all thank Umar for sparking many ideas and thoughts in many different areas.
Sister Um Abdullah,
I grew up in the very neighborhood you are referring to, next to Madrsah Islamiyyah. There are other problems that happen in poor neighborhood, which has nothing to do with ’salafee’ problem, specifically what Br. Umar was talking about.
My father just recently moved out of there. The Imam of Madrasah Islamiyyah’s daughters and I used to play together in that neighborhood
Marriage-Divorce again is not even a problem was what the sisters were talking about in Br. Umar’s blog. If you are in Houston, you might want to get to know Sr. Shahada (black convert), a VERY nice sisters mashAllah, who organizes many events for convert sisters once a month.
NEED HELP!
As many of you may know, there is a new brother in Islam, Mayor Hakim Mansour of the city of Macon, GA. There are blogs that are attacking him… one quoted my blog. The blog attacking him has been mentioned by the city’s main newspaper.
Pls see this story, and send a message of support to Br. Hakim. Also, pls engage with these hate-bloggers….
The Mayor of Macon’s Conversion
Um Reem, I stand corrected
I know its not necessarily a Salafi Minhaj issue, it just seemed like Bro. Amad was making it seem like Houston was perfect.
TSRP: Masha Allah brother, I would love for you to meet my husband, ya’ll would hit it off. Thats is his issue with brothers, they don’t take care of what Allah made them responsible for.
Bro Amad: I was thinking someone is going to read your journal entry and run with it, you know how people are now a days…
Brother Amad, I don not plan to announce on a blog who I am, and for all intents and purposes, you probably dont know who I am as I left the Dawah scene in 2000. I mentioned what I did not for boasting, but to make a point that not everyone who leaves Salafiyah leaves just because they have got burned with bad experiences-some do leave because of actual convictions.
As for your claim that there are no mid level of major Dai’s that have left Salafiyah, then that is incorrect. Zaid Shakir used to be a Salafi Da’i in the mid 90s and went to Syria as a Salafi but came back as a non Salafi. He is the one who gave Abu Muslimah his shahadah and had a large number of tapes floating around back then.
Another former Salafi Dai’ is the Madinah graduate Abdul Matin, and this is just in America with people that I know personally. If we look outside of the states, then there are even more, like Shaikh Yaf’i’ of Yemen who is a former student of Muqbil , as well as one Shaikh in Ta’if whose name i cant remember at the moment who was well known in Ta’if, and who recently left Salafiyah.
Its not a one way street as Darqawi would like to put it …..at least outside the west things are much different ( just my opinion from what i have personally seen) . Many of the salafi scholars i take from were bought up in what u would call “sunni” homes and had “traditional” education, they rejected it due to many reasons …
Some big names are Abdul Qadir Arnaut, Zamzami al Ghumari , Taqiuddin Hilali , Jameel Zeno, ‘Eed Abbasi and many others i personally know.
I mentioned the big names not because my deen is build upon them …actually i have not even read one book or a tape by one them , just to give those silent readers an idea of the “other side”
Anyway Allah guides whom he wills , i have heard of moulanas who became communist , “strong sincere” muslims who have confessed their christianity on youtube and not to forget those who apostated during the time of the prophet saws . So we should realise that our deen shouldnt be build upon attachement to personalities .
Yeah, we can play the name game if you like. I for one will not deny that there are scholars that came from certain backgrounds like you described, only to become Salafis later on.
The Ghumaris are in a class of their own, and have their own issues that are at variance with the way of the Asha’irah in the first place. As for Jamil Zeno, I have read his book about his journey to salafiyah, and indeed, he seemed to have been exposed to some of the more deviant elements among the claimants to Tasawwuf.
Dont you get annoyed when non salafis call you Khawarij or Takfiris, or link you with people like Faisal/Brookes/OBM? Well in a sense, that is what happens all the time with us. Salafis link us with the more deviated elements of those who claim Tasawwuf, and like to imagine that we are a monolith.
We should be mature enough to disagree and maintain brotherhood, and not use ad hominem attacks on others-linking them with ideas of people that they are free from. That goes for both Salafis and ”traditionalists”.
was salam
You guys with the “my movement is better than your movement” and “the personalities I follow are better than the personalities you follow” need to read Tariq’s post again because you are sadly missing the point.
Akhi Yusuf, I think Darqawi is making the same conclusion in his ending. That is that all dawahs/manhajs are usually not monolith and we ALL should be careful of what we THINK that the other believes or is upon. I thank Anonymous for correcting any impression that these ‘conversions’ were one way… that is an important clarification for some of us.
Also, Darqawi’s ultimate message, in my mind, is that we should not be beholden to everything just because it is part and parcel of that ‘certain’ way. That is a good message, and not inconsistent with Tariq’s general idea.
Amad, that was *precisely* what I was saying above - yet you, in the days after the ‘Dispatches’ article, refused to address anything of what was wrong in the speech, or to disassociate yourself from them (you even wrote about how “we have more akin to the ’super-salafis’ than to ‘traditionals’ or ’sufees’”
- and managed to broad-brush several more people. Having sympathy for people who want other muslims to defend them, while they turn around and call anyone not on their path as ‘non-muslim,’ even if they only do that by calling it ‘pure and authenticated Islaam’ or whatever, is like the story of the child who murders his parents and then begs lenience from the judge because he’s an orphan.
Clue yourself into why people don’t like ’salafis,’ and it goes far beyond mild disagreements on methodology, it’s outright calls to takfir, slaughter, and endorsement of suicide bombings and mass murder. Given that I have friends and brethren who’ve died in 9/11, afghanistan, somalia, chechnya - at the hands of Israelis, Americans, Russians, and ’super-salafis’ - I’m not sympathetic to any of their BS.
Am I clear enough for you? There are a lot of people who in general sympathise with some of the ’salafis,’ but would rather reserve that for Ali al-Tamimi and others who are innocent of takfir and mass murder, rather than “Sh” Faiz or other idiots who really are digging their own grave, whether you want to accept what AHM said or not.
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What I see in the text above is that submission to God is lacking on all fronts!
Before god, there is no black, brown, white, green or blue but the heart of justice and leadership. I see talk about socioeconomic status, low education and the like and these are social constructs made to separate people and downgrate them. This is not submission to God!
Dawud, if you didn’t notice, you were generally being ignored. As for your assertion that you have provided ‘advice’ before, perhaps your manners in the last comment reflect the reasons that it has been ignored/rejected before, and will continue to be so. Everything I have written or said available for anyone to see, on my blog and elsewhere. Your statement re: the similarities to the supers, for instance, was clarified in the comments to that entry, which you conveniently ignored. Obviously you choose to read the part you like, and ignore the majority that you don’t. That is usually the way of those who have an axe to grind.
Your consistent scathing attacks make you no different in akhlaaq from the ’super-salafis’ that you reject. This will be my last response to you, I prefer to save myself from coming down to your level again.
as salaamu alaykum,
Brother when i began to read your response to umar lee’s writings i actually began to cry (and I am not one who cries easily). Finally someone realizes what a cult mentality is and can articulate it through the organizations we are faced with as muslims in america. you see i was in a real cult for 11 and 1/2 years i.e. the so called ansar allah community, and a cult has a has a profile and it doesn’t matter what name you give it (if it fits the profile it’s a cult). Most of the organizations we have been exposed to in the west have this profile of a cult and no one or very few see it for what it is so we continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. Families are destroyed, reputations are are destroyed and lives are ruined all in the name of (whatever name you give it). I’m sixty years old and I took shahada in 1970 so I’ve seen a lot of things and groups come and go, I have victimized and been a victim several times over. as a muslim once you realize what the true minhaj is and commit yourself to it, it becomes extremely difficult to continue to turn a blind eye to the atrocities that continue to happen in the name of (whatever). You need a social atmosphere to grow, and raise your children, if you speak out immediately your are blacklisted and if you go along with okidoke you are torn inside because you know that you are being hypocritical. I lost a woman that I loved dearly and I’m separated from three beautiful children, and whatever happens we will never be a family again, and I’m probably one of the more fortunate ones because I still have my sanity, ma sha allah. Brother i could go on and on and on but for the sake of brevity I will end here. suffice to say you hit the nail on the head for me and I thank you for that, and may Allah ta ala guide you in your efforts, and i will continue to monitor this site for further discussions.
Was salaamu alaykum
Salaams Tariq,
Thank you for an impassioned reflection. I agree with you. The problem is related to human nature, rather than specific groups as such. That is, the ‘cult mentality’ as you put it, exists in ’salafi’, ’sufi’, ‘traditionalist’, yada, yada, yada……
Ma’as salama,
Abdur Rahman
Amad,
did you write something arrogant and dismissive?
How unusual for ’salafis,’ people who need friends and when they do something stupid, ask everyone to support them… and then attack other muslims.
Are you unsure as to whether I’m a muslim, that you behave like this?
Who slaughtered muslims in the Ka’aba, in 1923 and again in 1979… who?
[...] After reading this have a look at Tariq Nelson’s article - Recovering from the “movement mentality”. [...]
muslim hijab
I Googled for something completely different, but found your page…and have to say thanks. nice read.
Dawood, The ‘Salafi’ condemnation of the takfeeri movement and overall indeology is sufficient to exonorate those who align themselves with Salafia from the 1979 siege. Do you really believe that Juhayman was representative of salafia? I think even a brief look at his movement would reveal ‘removal from reality’ as a primary cause of that incident inspite of it’s religious packaging. 1923 is a bit of a stretch in the context in which you are speaking as I am assuming you are refering to the Saudi state adding the Hijaz to its growing kingdom, but where exactly did you here of a slaughter?
Salaams Abu Abdillah, There’s a well-known (in Saudi and at the religious schools) story - I won’t argue for it’s authenticity, but say that I’ve heard it repeated by other students of the named scholars) - that when Juhayman made his declarations of ‘takfir’ on the Saudi state, that he made six statements:”1. they’ve allowed other teachings than Islam to be propagated in the Arab peninsula, ie Jews and Christians 2. they’ve allowed the Shia to practice and propagate their doctrine 3. they’ve allowed music, TV, and the insidious influences of the West to spread in the Arab Peninsula, amongst the muslims 4. they have allowed the disbelievers to build churches and synagogues on the Arab peninsula 5. they have supported the disbelievers in word and wealth 6. they have made a fetish out of money” (sic, I may have quoted them wrong, but in substance, that is how I remember the allegations, please correct) - and that someone approached bin Baaz when he was making Tawaf, and questioned him on these allegations.
His answer, may Allah have mercy on him and us all, was “If the Saud family was truly doing these things (as claimed) then these would be enormities and worthy of condemnation. But these are false and empty accusations and ugly words against them.”
What more needs to be said on that matter, leave it to Allah… I can only add that Juhayman and his protege false ‘mahdí’ al-Qahtani came out of Muhammad ibn Saud university in Riyadh, and referenced the fatwas of bin Baaz and al-Baani in their condemnations…
as for 1923, I was referring to the willingness of the “ikhwan” troops to slaughter the muslims, Turkish troops in particular in Makkah, who I heard refused to fight muslims and instead withdrew into the Haram and stayed around the Ka’bah, and were slaughtered in the Haram.
Allah may forgive and be merciful, but those who made fatwas which allowed such slaughters to take place, as well as those who carried them out in the name of power and extension of land - in the end, serving the disbelieving powers (see “a Peace to End all Peace” by David Fromkin for confirmation that the British used the Hashemi family, along with the Saud and others in Iraq, against the Ottomans)…
muslims who lie about history and deny the truth of their present conditions, will repeat the same. That is simple and factual. may Allah be merciful, we must rectify ourselves… ma Salaama
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