Interracial Marriage
IbnAbeeOmar at Muslim Matters had a post on interracial marriage. I started on a short response, but I decided to post it here instead:
A synthesis of the American Muslim community is a noble goal and I think that interracial marriage is one of the ways to make it happen. Many people in East Africa, for example, are of Indian and East Asian descent as they melded and formed common cultures long ago.
From my observations, the only people who can really enter into a interracial marriage are the ones that have no “cultural baggage”. This has to be true of BOTH parties. If one party is entering the marriage with a ton of cultural expectations (especially those that contradict Islam) then it will not go very well. If the man is trying to shape the woman into a woman of his culture (or vice versa) there is often going to be friction.
That said, I still think that the prospective couple should have some cultural commonality. For example: an Arab man and Pakistani girl that were both raised in the US (and whose parents possibly attended the same masjid) might be a pretty good match. That is much different than that same Arab man going off to Pakistan to find a wife - something I would not recommend.
I learned a lot about cultures over the years and just after becoming Muslim found that I have a lot more in common (culturally) with a white American than I have with a Sub Saharan African. Some Blackamericans had to find this out the hard way as they married women from Africa thinking that they had a “common culture” then find out that that is not the case at all. Silly as that may sound, these people were encouraged to do it on “cultural basis”.
A woman born and raised in Ghana - and that hasn’t traveled - is probably not going to know how to make (Southern) Fried Chicken, understand a Dave Chappelle skit, or understand even your most basic cultural references. May sound silly, but these little things can affect a marriage. We’re not robots and women are not broodmares. He would do better to marry another woman (regardless of skin color) that was raised here in America, than to marry a woman (even of similar skin tone) from another country and culture.
We have to look at the fact that many of us (regardless of our background) that were born and raised here have a lot in common - in spite of some sub-cultural quirks - that we can build upon.
IbnAbeeOmar wrote:
If someone chooses to pursue an interracial marriage, they really need to “check yourself before you wreck yourself” and make sure they are ready to deal with the consequences of their decisions
I would change that to say “If someone chooses to pursue an interracial marriage, they really need to “check yourself before you wreck yourself” and make sure they are ready to deal with the consequences of their decisions
I understand what he is trying to say here, but at the end of the day, I say don’t marry a stranger even if he/she was raised a couple of streets over from you. A lot of stranger marriage disasters often came from situations where both people were from the same culture.
If we take a better approach to marriage things will work out naturally and better marriages (interracial and otherwise) will result, Insha Allah, as better matches will be made. That sure would beat herding someone off to the first available person of the opposite sex regardless of that person’s mental or financial state.
Filed under: Convert Issues, Race
Are you calling to the haraam akh? AND Southern Fried Chicken???
And just who are black women supposed to marry while everyone else is “mixing it up”?
Part of the issue with black women being left out is that the only black women that can be considered “attractive” are the mulattos who are similar in skin color and body type to Mariah Carey, Paula Abdul or Halle Berry. The darker skinned women are left with the left overs
Another issue in this is educational compatibility. A lot of AA sisters that are educated and have things going feel forced to marry some brother that has none of that
Sorry to burst your bubble Douglas, I’m a DARK sister. I was married to a white man BEFORE converting to Islam (he was simply ravishing), and I’m now married to a Middle Eastern/Arab man (another FINE - my eyes are extremely sensitive -man).
As a dark skinned woman, I have never had an issue attracting (AND KEEPING) a man, though I would occassionally hear childish remarks such as, “What’s he doing with HER?” but since I’m not one to give 2 cents about others opinions, In fact, at least on Long Island, I used to see more dark skinned sisters with white and latino (though I classify them as black, even the ones who look white) men. If you go to Bowie Town Center (BOwie, MD), again you’ll see many sisters who range from brown to so black, they’re purple (YET beautiful, naturally beautiful inside and out) with black, white, arab, indian, latino husbands/boyfriends. I grew up with a mixed family, the mother was a dark brown sister from Jamaica and the father from India, and look at Naomi Campbell, she’s dark and married to David Bowie.
Dark skinned sisters, don’t feed into the nonsense that you are NOT beautiful. Many FOREIGN and white men will never admit that they are secretly admiring you. I know several men from all over the world who desire to marry black, they only thing is their family (because unlike us Americans, they can’t marry unless mom and dad are happy with the mate).
Not to go off track, funny this is you’ll find more DARK skinned black women with naturally long hair than light skinned women - what’s up with that?! LOL
NOw that I have finished REMINDING you all about the beauty of us dark women, I will go back and read this thread ;).
But can you cook Southern Fried Chicken, Beautiful Chocolate?
Sorry, I am TOO PRETTY to cook, but smart enough to marry a man that can. Women that cook are over rated LOL
Sadly, my folks are from the south - mom (another beautiful dark woman) can’t cook. She is the only country girl I know who can’t make things happen in the kitchen, but she can bake some pies LOL.
Good points Tariq. My wife and I are like what you talked about. She came here pretty young and was schooled in the USA. With the exception of a few years spent him Saudi, she has been here since she was a kid.
Having said that, it is amazing how people who keep to “their own” in America can still miss out on things. It is the sub culture thing you talk about. My wife doesnt get some things I talk about, but they are mainstream American cultural things. Some people in these communities really isolate themselves to the point of missing out on wider American culture.
When two people from different cultures do marry I think it is very important for them to make an active effort to at least try to speak each others languages, if they can, and to learn the others culture to where they start to get the things they did not before. You have to be open.
My wife was pretty well versed on American culture and the like, but I worked hard to get to know the Arabic language, culture, TV, movies, music, you name it. So now I can get a lot of cultural references from Arabic society, I do have a knowledge of the things they talk about, ect.
Both sides must make this effort. Intercultural/interracial marriages can and do work, they just require more work from both sides.
Bint Will,
I am all with you! Here in the Metro DC area there are a lot of dark sinned African sisters who are drop dead gorgeous. I supposed I am not the only one who find East African especially gorgeous, the darker the better.
I am married to an Arab, but for me I have always found the darker Arab women most attractive, yet sadly they do everything they can to become lighter.
Bint Will,
Just curious, your husband, what nationality is he (is he sudanese), because Arab men are generally close minded and ignorant when it even comes to marrying even Arab Women with Dark Skin. I’ve never met any Arab man married to an African American Woman who is dark, light yes but dark no.
Abu Sinan, you and Tariq are right - culture impacts our relationships much more than skin tone/race/ethnicity.
Truth be told, I am finding Muslims are the ones - ironically - which these race issues. One of my brother’s married an Arab woman and they’ve been together since we were kids, another was married to an Indian woman, and another an Italian. These families, at least from what I’ve witnessed, never made this into an issue. When my husband married me, SOME of his folks were like I thought she was American, meaning white. Some black men do not like to see black women with nonblack men. One of my male cousins told me, no decent black man would ever want me since the enemy touched me, yet he turned and married a mulatto sister. On the other hand, there are many black women who simply refuse to marry and/or date anything but black, because black love is still strong - look at Obama and his chocolate queen. I have one friend who was hurt her son married a white woman, my thoughts were, at least she’s a Muslima and insha Allah your grandchildren will be raised as such.
I feel once we stop caring about what society has to say, a lot more of us will be happier, and as you’ve said, some of us need to step outside of the box and cross the street - there’s a huge beautiful world out there, full of beautiful and wonderful people.
As I’ve mentioned before, not sure whether it was here, when I moved from NY to the DC area, I experienced a huge jolt of culture shock. I’ve been living down here since 1998 and still do not understand native washingtonians. One very upsetting, at time was the divide between blacks and latinos I noticed down here, in NY were we family, even during my college days - , we had a black/latino co-ed fraternity (something we created since we are not Greek LOL).
If a woman decides to enter into an interracial marriage and the prospective husband is an AA convert…RUN in the opposite direction as fast as you can!!!!
Arabian knight - No, my husband is not Sudanese or dark skinned, though he is North African (Middle Eastern/Arab. I prefer to label them (North Africans) Berbers, something he doesn’t like) and very fair (white looking, meaning he can pass for Spanish or Italian (as can the majority of Arabs, it is rare to see an Arab that can actually pass for white w/the exceptions of Turks and Syrians - are they European or do we still classify them as Arabs?
You are right many fair skinned (white looking) generally do not marry darker skinned Arabs (though many fair skinned Arabs have more African features - booties, body thickness, lips, noses, hair texture – talk about wooly hair) than black Americans LOL. In my heart I firmly believe it’s due to family and societal pressure, only because more than once, I’ve been told things such as, “In my CULTURE (see how much more the culture means than Islam?!)…, or “my parents want me to marry white, but I want to marry black or…..” My response is always the same – marry one of each so everyone will be happy LOL. Of course colored (nonwhite) folks are notorious for the self-hatred, so this is another factor at play.
It’s no secret, some men, including black men, only want a white woman. I remember my girlfriend and I asking a brother what he was looking for in a wife, his response, “white skin.” hmm… that’s not much and I thought I was easy to please LOL. There is nothing wrong with marrying whites, if this is your preference then so be it. A few of my preferences and standards are: no former jailbirds or drug users (including weed/pot/marijuana and alcohol), married men (yes I know it’s lawful, but NOT OBLIGATORY FOR A WOMAN, however the majority of men in the US cannot afford more than one wife and I am not woman enough to handle that lifestyle – this eliminated a lot of men from the spouse pool for me, but I refused to alter it and this former divorced with children, dark woman was able to find a single man (but it wasn’t easy because I’m picky when it comes to men, being a Muslim isn’t impressive enough for me).
Frankly, I’m glad I’m black because at least I know my husband married me because of who I am - I’m broke so it can’t be the money LOL, and he’s legal - not my skin color which is no better than a woman marrying a man because he has money or comes from such and such family. Either way the person is being used and it’s disgusting, especially if it’s coming from a Muslim. If we understood Islam then we’d do as the Prophet instructed, and marry the pious amongst us. Yet we sit and wonder why there’s so much widespread corruption in our ummah and why the world thinks Islam is a joke, the majority of us have no clue what it means to be a Muslim.
For some reason, I have met more than my fair share of Arabs, who are married to black women, or have a desire to marry black women. One Yemeni brother had the audacity to tell me, black women love him, as if that would impress me and I’m still wondering why he felt I needed to know this. Remember the white (he is actually Lebanese) cop who shot a black man in PG a few years back, and everyone tried to cry racism… well, he’s married to a deep dark black woman. But as I’ve mentioned before nonMuslim Arabs tend to be accepting than SOME Muslim Arabs. I asked my husband why he didn’t marry a white woman, he told me he knows how they are - whatever that means and I have no desire to find out because I don’t care for sweeping generalizations, especially when it comes to women - I am very protective over my sisters (Muslim and nonmuslims alike).
I’ve had several proposals from a variety of Arabs, including one Saudi brother, but I am very afraid of them because I am a typical black woman, meaning YES I talk back and if you raise your hand to me…that’s all she wrote. Sadly, my office receives numerous correspondence from ex-Saudi (and other Arab) wives/girlfriends who have been abandoned, some of the men DENYING the children they have created. For some reason foreign men like me, perhaps it’s because I don’t kiss butt - I treat everyone the same regardless of religion, race, ethnicity, SES, lineage. Absolutely no human in this world, with the exception of my children and parents are that important to me, however if you are in my presence I will ensure you feel like the most important person in the world, unless I find you disrespectful (speak down to me or overstep your boundaries) then you’ll feel my wrath.
Assalamulakum to all , the sad thing is dont you feel all of this is just too superficial, at the end of the day if muslims were truely concerned with taqwa would they care where their husband or wife came from. As long as there is compatibility and common goals what is the dam problem
Br Tariq , bro i know you dont know me but i love you for the sake of Allah swt and if you are in London, England please email me and we will meet up and have some curry.
Keep up the good work my brother.
salams
I have to take back the comment that I made earlier….After carefully thinking about what I said…I *think* there may be 2 or 3 good AA convert brothers out there…
Also, you will notice the “beautiful” black women are always those with white features. What this Halle woman is is nothing but a white girl with a permanent tan. So when the black community talks about how beautiful some of their “sisters” are, they are just re-affirming WHITE beauty standards. Yes there are exceptions like Bint Will, but for the most part, non-black men don’t want black women
If I were an intelligent, well-to-do black woman, I KNOW I’d have a hard time finding a decent, responsible, law-abiding, respectful, caring black man. What are the chances? Let’s face it, the pickins in that department HAVE to be slim
I am a Mexican-American man who just so happens to have a wife that is a black woman
When I first approached the love of my life she was VERY skeptical about dating a Mexican-American…a pale skinned white looking one at that.
Other Latinos sometimes give us a second look, but SELDOM have I encountered outright bigotry regarding our relationship.
In addition to the racial differences, there are also VAST class differences. My wife’s family is soldily middle class, her father is an attorney and I come from the barrio (hood)!
While I must admit that INTIALLY it was a physical attraction, I have come to realize that her inner beauty far exceeds anything superficial.
All I can say that this woman is my best friend and I LOVE her dearly and deeply—we have been together now 13 years and have 2 boys.
Keepin it real - sister step away from the computer and give yourself a hug ((((HUG)))). Bad men exists in all races/ethnicities and all aren’t converts. Why are black Christian men faring better than our Muslim men?
Stan - Stop watching Cops OR at least balance it out with AMW (America’s Most Wanted).
Douglas - Seriously, you are right in some respects, though I still think it has a lot to do with societal pressures as well. If it is black skin that is hated, then our features would not be a factor (as in places like Egypt, India, Saudi, etc. where the fair skinned ones will not marry the dark skinned ones, who share the same features) - have you seen Victoria Dillard? Tatiana Ali? Tichana Arnold? Don’t get me started on the dark skinned beauty queen campaign, because you know I will go there (and Tariq may have to ban me for a minute LOL). There are whites and other non blacks with black features, and of course light skinned blacks with strong african features. During my youth, one of my best friends was a white girl named Mary. I spent a lot of time at her home, and her parents were very kind to me. One day, while walking down the street, her father drove past me and called me a nigger. If he truly hated black peopel, why did he allow me to eat from his table and enter his home? Can you imagine what the Grand Imperial Wizard would have said - btw, am I the only one who notices how the Washington Monument resembles a klansmen? look at it closely (google a photo that zooms in on the upper most portion - He’s another Strom Thurmond (shouting in public I hate darkey and go back to Africa, yet loving black in the privacy of him home). We have to ask ourselves, especially in Thurmond’s case considering the time - pre-civil rights era, if he was only screwing this black woman, why did he acknowledge and provide for his black child? Also, pre civil rights era we had just as many mulattos folks running around (many claiming native american ancestry when they just denying the black or white blood running through their vains).
Men don’t know what they want when it comes to a woman. Let me stereotype the men. They say they want thin, so we starve ourselves. They want dark, so we burn our skin (get tans via the beach or tanning booth). They want light, so we bleach our skin. They want thick, so we become obese confusing it with thick. They want a housewife, then complain because they are tired of working like a dog. They want a career woman, then complain because dinner isn’t ready when they get home. They want a confident woman, then run from our assertiveness and honesty. They want a door mat/yes sir woman, then get frustrated when we have no opinion of our own or can’t participate in the conversation at the dinner table. They want a pretty woman, then complain when we wear makeup to enhance our beautify ourselves. They want an adventurous, athetic woman, then get angry when we can benchpress more than them. THey want an indepent woman, yet complain because we can fix our own flat and change the oil. *SIGH* ooh Vince, needs to bring China back to the WWE to straighten the fellas out. Why did they have to kill Xena, the Warrior Princess!
Bint Will,
I wish your experience was the norm but most AA Muslimas I know don’t get that kind of love from Muslim men. In my community there is an epidemic of AA Muslimas married to non Muslim men. Most of the ones that do marry Muslim men have horror stories of multiple marriages and divorces. These women will tell you they have not rejected Islam, only Muslim men. I really think it’s a rejection of the foul way some practice/d Islam in our community. Co-wives both on welfare living in the same building, living in your grandmother’s backhouse with your wife and ten kids, suggesting that you marry incarcerated brothers or brothers about to be paroled cuz you got a good job and should want to help a brother out and question your deen if you say no. I could go on and on but the point is most Muslim men lived or behaved worse than non Muslims. And since this thread is about interracial marriage…many AA Muslimas stick with AA men (Muslim or not) because of attraction (you have to admit some brothers just have a swagger about them), racism and stereotypes about AA Muslimas (I’ve read them on this site…loud talking, lip smackin, neck rollin…seriously can a sista get some love), proximity, and at least they know they’re not being used for their blue passports.
“but for the most part, non-black men don’t want black women”
That is such a myth. But if you want to keep believing that, go ahead. But I know way too many anecdoates and statistics to prove otherwise. In fact, social scientiests have shown that white American men have little issues being with phenotypically African Black women or African women. There is colorism in Morocco (tons of fading creme), but that didn’t stop the men from screaming “Zwaina” (pretty) when they passed by me. When I was with my my friend, who is a brown skinned black Brazilian and ooks like my little sister, guys used to seranade us sing “Asmarani” (My tanned/brown skinned one). They didn’t know we were American, but often assumed we were Black Moroccans. I write about colorism in our community and I do think it is a problem. But let’s avoid the over-generalizations. I have been asked for several times by non-black Muslim men in various communities. Last week, I went to the masjid out of town with my friend and this Middle Eastern guy followed us down the block, into the Halal store and down another the block to give me his card. Later that day, he ran up into the women’s section of the mosque to try to speak to me. We had to shut him down for the silly antics. I grew up in a predominately Mexican American working class area, and it was a big score if you could pull a pretty Black girl. Puerto Ricans were the same way, white men too, and as well as Asian men that liked hip hop and had Black friends. Just a lot non-Black men are intimidated to approach us because Black women can be really mean when they shut down a guy who is trying to hollar at them. As far as in the Muslim community, a lot of men are attracted to Black women, they just worry about what other people have to say, especially their mom and dad.
BTW, I cook Southern Fried Chicken, halal greens and black-eyed, and mean Gumbo but I have crazy versatility in the chicken and can cook Middle Eastern too.
Margari,
I’d like to see your stats. I said for the “most part” not ALL. One’s personal experiences do not make for data. We are reading article after article about black women’s problems finding mates and all kinds of stats that just run in the face of what you are saying. I don’t discount your personal experiences, but let’s look at the entire picture
“BTW, I cook Southern Fried Chicken…”
Margari:
Finally, someone has addressed the real issue here
Douglas,
Your claim does not draw upon quantitative data either. My claim draws upon qualitative inquiry, aggregates of anecdotal evidence from associates, peers and friends (which does add up to data), and informed by my lifetime of experience and experience in a multi-ethnic family. Data comes into all forms, and one cannot dismiss anecdotal stories as a source for evidence. My big picture is informed by my experiences and my undergrad research on interracial marriage laws and depictions of miscegenation in media from the early days of film to post WWII, and my studies of racially ambiguous women in literature and film. When I look at the big picture, I take into historical context.
Yes, often Black women have trouble finding comparable mates and the Muslim community is more socially conservative about interracial marriage than American society. It is especially hard to find a mate for highly educated women or professional Black women who exclude non-Black men. I know many who remain single because they are waiting for that right brother to come along. On the other hand, I know far too many attractive black women that have been approached by men outside their race. Many of my peers are not attracted to non-Black men. Also, many Black women do not want to be fetishized, they feel as if only Black men can understand where they are coming from or appreciate them, or they fear some wierd power assymtries in their relationship.
As for the qualitative data, when I get free time, I will send you references to studies and demographic figures that will disprove your claim that “NO ONE” wants Black women. Rick Banks, a professor of Law at Stanford held a forum on this issue a few years back. Banks argued that if Black women wanted to increase their chances of getting married, that they needed to open up their dating possibilities. I remember Banks pointing out stats that color was not an issue for white men, since a number married West African or Caribbean who were were phenotypically African, as opposed to Black women who were more ambiguous. But there is a fetishization of mixed raced women in this society, no doubt.
The thing that is especially problematic about your statement and the discourse that I, myself, have participated in is that it plays into the minimalization of Black women’s worth. It reaffirms, “Nobody wants us, not even our men.” But the way I see it as a Black woman is this:” I am going to judge you by the way you deal with me. How you see me says a whole lot more about you than what it says about me.” So, if a man can’t see me for my inherent, God given worth, he’s not worth it. There is too much literature on the fetishization of Black women’ sexuality and a long history where Black women’s sexuality was exploited that really complicates the picture.
But on the transgressive tip: It is clear that this society has a European standard of beauty. Nothing undermines that like a striking Black woman. It is destabilizing even for people who buy into that myth. My dearest friend is a beautiful Chocoloate sister and she wears hijab and is tall and striking. I have seen Arab men, Desi men, North African men look at her. They want her, but it is clear how she carries herself. They can’t approach her with some nonsense.
Anyways, the last Macaroni and cheese and peach cobbler I made was sooooooo masha’Allah.
Assalamu alaikum, hmmm, perhaps African-American Muslim women are having a hard time finding African-American Muslim men to marry? Or perhaps, *all* Muslim women are finding it hard to find good Muslim men to marry? I’m just asking. As far as marrying interracially / interculturally, I think it can be done, but there has to be mutual respect, mutual understanding, and a lot of respect and a willingness to learn. So I don’t think that it’s impossible!
Rashad, pass this on to your wife, because we don’t want you burning down the kitchen, courtesy the Chocolate Beauty known as Bint Will LOL If it turns out well, tell her make a SAMPLE for her beloved Muslim sister.
Margari - I don’t believe you, please send samples via FedEx so I can judge for myself.
RECIPE:
Lighten up this hearty all-American favorite by switching to oven frying. And you can kick up the flavor by using buttermilk and a dash of cayenne pepper.
Ingredients
1/2 cup all-purpose flour
1/4 tsp table salt
1/8 tsp cayenne pepper
3 oz buttermilk
3/4 cup cornflake crumbs
1 pound uncooked boneless, skinless chicken breast, four 4-oz pieces
Instructions
Preheat oven to 365ºF. Lightly coat an 8 X 8 X 2-inch baking dish with nonstick cooking spray; set aside.
Combine flour, salt and cayenne pepper together in a medium-size bowl. Place buttermilk and corn flakes crumbs in 2 separate shallow bowls.
Roll chicken breast halves in flour mixture and evenly coat each side. Next dip chicken into buttermilk and then corn flakes crumbs.
Place coated chicken breasts in prepared baking dish. Bake until chicken is tender and no longer pink, about 20 minutes (there is no need to flip the chicken during baking). Yields 1 breast per serving.
Chef Tips
We updated the Southern-Style Oven Fried Chicken by:
Switching to “oven frying” rather than “deep-fat frying.”
Using skinless, boneless chicken breasts instead of dark meat with the skin.
Dipping the chicken in naturally low-fat buttermilk instead of eggs to help the coating stick.
If you don’t like this one, check out http://www.southernfriedchickenrecipe.com, they have a variety of recipes…
Hey Tariq, care to host a Southern Fried Chicken potluck? Douglas, you can’t come unles you have a chocolate sister on your arm LOL
Now the comment above has to be, hands down the best comment in the history of blogs. Excuse me while I print out the recipe…
Now don’t mis-read my chicken obsession. My brown sugah wife is a Southern Girl i.e., Memphis TN, by way of Mis’sippi parents. In other words, she can hook up some chicken. Now I don’t know the recipe - I just show up at the table when its ready.
I was just trying to get the Ahkaam of Southern Fried Chicken out in the open for the benefit of those who may need a little soul in their kitchen.
Margari,
First of all, re-read my post. I never said NO ONE wants black women. That is an assinine claim and you are debating a point that I have not made.
I said FOR THE MOST PART non-black men do not want black women. And by that I mean as marriage partners. That doesn’t mean that you can’t find exceptions or non-black men who fetishize black women (something that I will admit is widespread)
My claim draws upon census data and literally TONS of articles where black women complain of not being able to find mates. Are you denying this and telling me that this is not true?
Douglas, I get what you are saying and you may be correct if you are talking mainstream. My personal experiences with myself, my mother, and sister, is that men from all walks of life have been attracted to/lusted after/wanted to marry us. My personal observations are that a black woman considered unattractive by black men could easily find a non black man to marry her (not just screw her with a bag over her face) before she would find a black man who would even take her to the movies. The internet has opened up interracial dating like never before. People who would have never been caught in the hood or may have never known a black person can now hook up with one just a few clicks away. I think it’s nice because I have seen the most unattractive people from all races find someone from another race to love and appreciate them, when thier own people wouldn’t.
Now with that said, is white southern food the same as black southern cooking? Does it have soul too?
Douglas,
First, my purpose here was to complicate the generalization. I am glad that you clarified your stance because it is clear that the majority of the greater population do not consider Black women as possible marriage partners. I am not arguing against the stats that indicate that Black women are least preferred as marriage partners. Also, many Black women would not consider marrying an immigrant Muslim or a man outside the community. As far as the discourse on interracial marriage, Black-white couples are receive the most attention. But Black people are the least likely to marry interracially period. But Black men are twice as likely to marry interracially than Black women.
But a note on methodologies: quality scholarship considers both statistics and qualitative data, trends and exceptions. It is important to see the exceptions, as well as trends and tendencies, to understand how Black women navigate a racist sexist world. As for the bigger picture, I address many of the complexities in my own blog. Among the many themes I address care olorism and racism in the Muslim community, gendered racism, and the struggle of Black women in this society. Some of your claims were so strong, especially the initial post where you claim that dark skinned women get leftovers.
I’m a Black (Jamerican) woman currently in the process of divorcing my North African husband. I happen to agree that culturally I’m more compatible with an American man than I am with someone from Africa, for instance. I’ve also found it out the hard way. The funny thing is when my STB ex-husband and I are together, most people think we’re from the same place yet culturally we couldn’t be further apart. Allah knows best but I don’t think I can do the interracial marriage thing any longer. I don’t think I’m cut out for it.
However, I notice many Arab, Indian and African men expect the American woman to conform to their cultures rather to compromise or simply accept us as we are. I’ve seen it over and over again and it’s really sad. (Especially when the sister is new to Islam and doesn’t know the difference between culture and religion).
Even with what I’ve said, I do think interracial marriages can work. I suppose it depends on the people involved and what is they need from the marriage…
Southern food is just that…Southern. There are some small subtle differences (I hate that white gravy) but overall, southern fried eatin’ is just as tasty (and deadly) when white folks cook as it is when black folks cook. You go to a any neighborhood in the south, and people expect catfish to be fried and served a certain way - doesn’t matter if you’re white or black. Same with fried chicken (The Colonel anyone?) and other Southern delicacies (peach cobbler, giblet gravy, seafood gumbo, greens, cornbread, bread pudding, grits & biscuits, chicken & gravy, Po’ boys …(sigh) now I’m hungry…
Obviously I could have made the list a lot longer if I included pork dishes…but I tried to stay within what I personally eat.
y’all are making me hungry.
So chitlins is not a black thing?
I’m going to go look on the scale, I feel heavier just reading about that. How do southerners keep in shape? I know not everyone is overweight with heart diseases.
I guess it’s true what they say about the way to a man’s heart is threw his stomach. too bad I don’t like to/can’t cook.
I don’t think so Umm Adam. I’ve never eaten a chitlin a day in my life, and I’m as black as they come. I believe it’s a southern thing. I’ve also noticed southerners tend to more family oriented than us Northerners (as in PA and up). YOu’ll find more couples, with their children in the south than in the north, and they (nonMuslims) still tend to marry very young (right after highschool).
Um Abdullah, well I did provide a link, so I suggest you find your RIGHTFUL place and start cooking LOL, seeing that brother Tariq is moving slow on the potluck LOL
Tariq and I obsess over this issue all the time. Despite his present address, Tariq is a Mis’ssippi boy himself. Southerners do seem to have a less than nutritional diet overall but looking at recent studies, America in general has gotten more obese and grown ill do due poor diet and lack of exercise. There is a lot of overlap these days also. People are relocating all the time in America and now you can find food that originates out of New England and the Northeast in Memphis. Southern style food is available everywhere nowadays. West coast tastes have made its way south and vice versa. We’re one big unhealthy happy family.
I wouldn’t know much about White Southern food, it is not like I’ve been invited to eat over white southerners’ houses. A lot is shared, from what I gather in recipe books. Southern style food is available everywhere, especially in California thanks to Soul Food establishments. Even though many families, like my own, migrated North in the 40s, we maintained many of the cooking traditions. Of course, things change over time and there is blending and borrowing. Well, I had to modify the traditions when I took Shahada.
Living in the south, you don’t have to actually be invited to people’s houses to know what the tastes are in the area. Just look around at what restaurants are making money. When we go somewhere to eat, there are blacks and whites eating up all that fried chicken, fish, greens, yams, cornbread etc. There are too many cajun catfish places, soul food places, blue plate cafes, cracker barrels to just be getting by on the business that the small percentage of black people’s business would bring them. I work along side of white people. Gone to many lunches with white co-workers, live in what would be considered a white neighborhood and when the issue of food comes up, its pretty much ijmaa’ on what we all like (minus the pork of course). My next door neighbor and I talk football and food all the time and this guy is straight-up southern - from Lousianna and his tastes are the same as mine (minus the pork of course).
Addendum,
Cajun places have introduced folks to white Southern food throughout the country. In the West coast, some establishments have Country food, and that is way different from the Soul Food establishments.
Seems that black and white Southerners have more in common culturally than either would probably care to admit and potentially making a pretty good cultural match
I believe we were originally comparing and contrasting White SOUTHERN FOOD with Black SOUTHERN FOOD. In other words, the way white people and black people in the same region (the south) have common food tastes. Country food and ‘Soul’ Food is a different comparison. NOrthern and west coast blacks may have ‘Soul’ food traditions but it may differ slightly in taste from southerners. And whether nothern whites or west coast whites share these tastes are irrelevent to the fact that we were talking about southern white food tastes. ‘Country’ west coast food is not the same as southern food, white or black.
Addendum,
Why don’t you come to the south and see for yourself. It’s hard to tell what southern white folk eat from the west coast.
SaveRAshad,
Who says that this conversation has to stay on one subject? We originally started talking about interracial marriage, now we are talking about Southern food. And I’m interested to know if White southern families who relocated to the North in the 1940s maintain any of the culinary traditions from the South. If not, why is that? Soul Food, which derives from Southern Food and the culinary tastes that followed Black folks during the Northern Migrations. There are southerners who do move to California, but I’ve only made friends with the Black ones. We have plenty of people who came here within the past few years from Alabama, Mississipi, Louisiana, and Georgia. And I’ve tasted different varieties of Soul food and recipes that reflect regional traditions. On the other hand, the only White Southerners that I have seen maintain their traditions are family run Cajun restaurants.
Wow, all this talk of southern food from a post on marriage LOL
That cracks me up.
To add my own 2 cents I must admit that I absolutely detest southern food. Anything I’ve ever tasted always seemed to be low on spice/flavor and high on grease to overcompensate for the lack of real spice. I moved to the south when I was 13 and distinctly recall the first time I had a southern meal. I was extremely disappointed LOL. I really don’t get the appeal, no offense
(I’m guessing I won’t be marrying a southern guy anytime soon LOL)
I’m guessing that’s why you logged in anon. Better watch yo back!
IR Marriages seems to be the new trend in the US
http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2007/04/13/635481.html
NEW YORK - The charisma king of the 2008 presidential field. The world’s best golfer. The captain of the New York Yankees. Besides superstardom, Barack Obama, Tiger Woods and Derek Jeter have another common bond: Each is the child of an interracial marriage.
For most of U.S. history, in most communities, such unions were taboo.
It was only 40 years ago _ on June 12, 1967 _ that the U.S. Supreme Court knocked down a Virginia statute barring whites from marrying nonwhites. The decision also overturned similar bans in 15 other states.
Since that landmark Loving v. Virginia ruling, the number of interracial marriages has soared; for example, black-white marriages increased from 65,000 in 1970 to 422,000 in 2005, according to Census Bureau figures. Factoring in all racial combinations, Stanford University sociologist Michael Rosenfeld calculates that more than 7 percent of America’s 59 million married couples in 2005 were interracial, compared to less than 2 percent in 1970.
Coupled with a steady flow of immigrants from all parts of the world, the surge of interracial marriages and multiracial children is producing a 21st century America more diverse than ever, with the potential to become less stratified by race.
“The racial divide in the U.S. is a fundamental divide. … but when you have the ‘other’ in your own family, it’s hard to think of them as ‘other’ anymore,” Rosenfeld said. “We see a blurring of the old lines, and that has to be a good thing, because the lines were artificial in the first place.”
The boundaries were still distinct in 1967, a year when the Sidney Poitier film “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” _ a comedy built around parents’ acceptance of an interracial couple _ was considered groundbreaking. The Supreme Court ruled that Virginia could not criminalize the marriage that Richard Loving, a white, and his black wife, Mildred, entered into nine years earlier in Washington, D.C.
But what once seemed so radical to many Americans is now commonplace.
Many prominent blacks _ including Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, civil rights leader Julian Bond and former U.S. Sen. Carol Moseley Braun _ have married whites. Well-known whites who have married blacks include former Defense Secretary William Cohen and actor Robert DeNiro.
Last year, the Salvation Army installed Israel Gaither as the first black leader of its U.S. operations. He and his wife, Eva, who is white, wed in 1967 _ the first interracial marriage between Salvation Army officers in the United States.
Opinion polls show overwhelming popular support, especially among younger people, for interracial marriage.
That’s not to say acceptance has been universal. Interviews with interracial couples from around the country reveal varied challenges, and opposition has lingered in some quarters.
Bob Jones University in South Carolina only dropped its ban on interracial dating in 2000; a year later 40 percent of the voters objected when Alabama became the last state to remove a no-longer-enforceable ban on interracial marriages from its constitution.
Taunts and threats, including cross burnings, still occur sporadically. In Cleveland, two white men were sentenced to prison earlier this year for harassment of an interracial couple that included spreading liquid mercury around their house.
More often, though, the difficulties are more nuanced, such as those faced by Kim and Al Stamps during 13 years as an interracial couple in Jackson, Miss.
Kim, a white woman raised on Cape Cod, met Al, who is black, in 1993 after she came to Jackson’s Tougaloo College to study history. Together, they run Cool Al’s _ a popular hamburger restaurant _ while raising a 12-year-old son and 10-year-old daughter in the state with the nation’s lowest percentage ( 0.7) of multiracial residents.
The children are homeschooled, Kim said, because Jackson’s schools are largely divided along racial lines and might not be comfortable for biracial children. She said their family triggered a wave of “white flight” when they moved into a mostly white neighborhood four years ago _ “People were saying to my kids, ‘What are you doing here?’”
“Making friends here has been really, really tough,” Kim said. “I’ll go five years at a time with no white friends at all.”
Yet some of the worst friction has been with her black in-laws. Kim said they accused her of scheming to take over the family business, and there’s been virtually no contact for more than a year.
“Everything was race,” Kim said. “I was called ‘the white devil.’”
Her own parents in Massachusetts have been supportive, Kim said, but she credited her mother with foresight.
“She told me, ‘Your life is going to be harder because of this road you’ve chosen _ it’s going to be harder for your kids,’” Kim said. “She was absolutely right.”
Al Stamps said he is less sensitive to disapproval than his wife, and tries to be philosophical.
“I’m always cordial,” he said. “I’ll wait to see how people react to us. If I’m not wanted, I’ll move on.”
It’s been easier, if not always smooth, for other couples.
Major Cox, a black Alabamian, and his white wife, Cincinnati-born Margaret Meier, have lived on the Cox family homestead in Smut Eye, Ala., for more than 20 years, building a large circle of black and white friends while encountering relatively few hassles.
“I don’t feel it, I don’t see it,” said Cox, 66, when asked about racist hostility. “I live a wonderful life as a nonracial person.”
Meier says she occasionally detects some expressions of disapproval of their marriage, “but flagrant, in-your-face racism is pretty rare now.”
Cox _ an Army veteran and former private detective who now joins his wife in raising quarter horses _ longs for a day when racial lines in America break down.
“We are sitting on a powder keg of racism that’s institutionalized in our attitudes, our churches and our culture,” he said, “that’s going to destroy us if we don’t undo it.”
In many cases, interracial families embody a mix of nationalities as well as races. Michelle Cadeau, born in Sweden, and her husband, James, born in Haiti, are raising their two sons as Americans in racially diverse West Orange, N.J., while teaching them about all three cultures.
“I think the children of families like ours will be able to make a difference in the world, and do things we weren’t able to do,” Michelle Cadeau said. “It’s really important to put all their cultures together, to be aware of their roots, so they grow up not just as Swedish or Haitian or American, but as global citizens.”
Meanwhile, though, there are frustrations _ such as school forms for 5-year-old Justin that provide no option for him to be identified as multiracial.
“I’m aware there are going to be challenges,” Michelle said. “There’s stuff that’s been working for a very long time in this country that is not going to work anymore.”
The boom in interracial marriages forced the federal government to change its procedures for the 2000 census, allowing Americans for the first time to identify themselves by more than one racial category.
About 6.8 million described themselves as multiracial _ 2.4 percent of the population _ adding statistical fuel to the ongoing debate over what race really means.
Kerry Ann Rockquemore, professor of African-American studies at the University of Illinois-Chicago, is the daughter of a black father and white mother, and says she is asked almost daily how she identifies herself.
The surge in interracial marriage comes at “a very awkward moment” in America’s long struggle with racism, she says.
“We all want deeply and sincerely to be beyond race, to live in a world where race doesn’t matter, but we continue to see deep racial disparities,” Rockquemore said. “For interracial families, the great challenge is when the kids are going to leave home and face a world that is still very racialized.”
The stresses on interracial couples can take a toll. The National Center for Health Statistics says their chances of a breakup within 10 years are 41 percent, compared to 31 percent for a couple of the same race.
In some categories of interracial marriage, there are distinct gender-related trends. More than twice as many black men marry white women as vice versa, and about three-fourths of white-Asian marriages involve white men and Asian women.
C.N. Le, a Vietnamese-American who teaches sociology at the University of Massachusetts, says the pattern has created some friction in Asian-American communities.
“Some of the men view the women marrying whites as sellouts, and a lot of Asian women say, ‘Well, we would want to date you more, but a lot of you are sexist or patriarchal,’” said Le, who attributes the friction in part to gender stereotypes of Asians that have been perpetuated by American films and TV shows.
Kelley Kenney, a professor at Kutztown University in Pennsylvania, is among those who have bucked the black-white gender trend. A black woman, she has been married since 1988 to a fellow academic of Irish-Italian descent, and they have jointly offered programs for the American Counseling Association about interracial couples.
Kenney recalled some tense moments in 1993 when, soon after they moved to Kutztown, a harasser shattered their car window and placed chocolate milk cartons on their lawn. “It was very powerful to see how the community rallied around us,” she said.
Kenney is well aware that some blacks view interracial marriage as a potential threat to black identity, and she knows her two daughters, now 15 and 11, will face questions on how they identify themselves.
“For older folks in the black community,” she said “it’s a feeling of not wanting people to forget where they came from.”
Yet some black intellectuals embrace the surge in interracial marriages and multiracial families; among them is Harvard law professor Randall Kennedy, who addressed the topic in his latest book, “Interracial Intimacies: Sex, Marriage, Identity, and Adoption.”
“Malignant racial biases can and do reside in interracial liaisons,” Kennedy wrote. “But against the tragic backdrop of American history, the flowering of multiracial intimacy is a profoundly moving and encouraging development.”
Wow! There are allot of interesting topics here!!
I’m AA and my husband is West African. We have had cultural clashes, but, becuase of our personality types, we were never ugly, treacerous, or cruel to one another. We are pretty compatible in most areas, especially the major areas that can really break a marriage. My husband and I love to learn in general, we love learning about each other, and our differences aren’t threats to our relationship, we celebrate them through laugher, and as much joy as we can possibly stand!!
My experience has been that the AA brothers in this area were only interested in North African or White American sisters. Also, all the AA sisters I personally know or know who have been married at least five years are all married to brothers from Africa and a few are married to white Americans. I didn’t marry an AA brother becuase the majority of them were Salafi and I do not belive that , that movement is an acceptable path to God, and all the Salfi brothers I knew of ( alhamdilal I don’t know them) were abusing polygamy, abusing their wives and their children.
I met one really nice AA brother when I worked for a Muslim publishing co but he was traveling and was from Michigan. He was coporate, well mannered, cultured, and very positive. I was always attracted to men like this. I thought they represented Islam so positively to the world versus being self righteous, hateful, and mean spirited to people in the Name of Islam or worse in the Name of Allah.- Astarfullah.
Just my opinion. I believe that people should be with who ever they believe will make them happy and it’s nobodys business.
Mary Ann
Salaam
http://www.bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com
Woe is me, nobody wants a black woman. LOL.
Turkey with cornbread stuffing, anyone? I don’t feel like waiting till November to have some…LOL.
I’ll have to take you up on that foreverloyal. Plus I’m going to miss Thanksgiving while I’m away in Egypt.
Truth be told….white men have ALWAYS had access to black women ever since they’ve been brought to the new world. So let’s cut the crap about men from other races not wanting black women.
There’s only an uproar when black men decide to have interracial relations. Not all black American muslim males are ex-convicts and deadbeats neither.
I agree with you Yahya. In fact, one of my friends told me about Chinese laborers who settled in the South and married Black women in the early 20th century. Her daughter is a descendant of this community. I also know of one family whose Filipino grandfather married a Black woman, as did their grand uncles. LIkewise, in Guyana my friend’s grandfather is Indian and his brothers also married Black women. Up until the 1960s, the majority of Black-white interracial relationships were white men with black women. One can find a number of historical cases where Black women or mixed raced women were the desired mistresses and wives of Latin and French men. In the US laws made it illegal to marry, and many men kept mistresses.
Black women are looked down upon if they marry outside their community. Black men aren’t the only ones who get the backlash. I grew up with lots of people making fun of me because my mom had crossed over. And my mother was also made fun of because White men used to court my grandmother. Ask any Black woman who has been in one how many negative comments she received from brothers on the street or her own family members and friends. It takes a lot of courage to make people uncomfortable. Plus, you may have a partner who doesn’t understand your commitment to the black community and is not supportive or people may doubt your commitment to the community because you married someone outside your race. Usually people think that you dislike yourself if you are attracted to someone who doesn’t look like you. Unfortunately, everything we do as a people is scrutinized. Every decision we make becomes political. Sometimes you have to say screw it, I’m going to be me and try to be happy!
Clearly, not all Black men are ex-cons and dead beats. But I know one thing, a lot of good brothers aren’t holding their breath waiting for a good Black woman to come along. I know a number of men who have told me that they don’t have a preference for Black women. For them it doesn’t matter, women are women. I also know a small but significant number of Black men who don’t like Black women and prefer to date or marry someone outside their community. I’m not saying that Black women who have a preference for Black men don’t have a chance. But those in integrated communities or professional careers have a harder time finding a suitable partner. For each of those good Black men in college, they have 4 sistas to choose from and a number of other options from various ethnic groups as well. I know plenty of sistas with advanced degrees and Ph.D.s who are either married to or dating blue collar brothas. I And it works out well because the men aren’t intimidated and they value what these sistas do. ‘ve also seen relationships where both wife and husband are academics or professional. But even those sistas who keep their options open face challenges that their white counterparts don’t have because there are many negative stereotypes about Black women. Black women need to follow their own hearts and make sure that the man who is pursuing them has his intentions in the right place. That goes for any ethnicity.
salaam Margari,
I love your blog and I wish there more postings over there. I’m thinking of starting my own blog when I get more time…………
……..anyway I was just pointing out that in Europe/Latin America etc. one will find that an overwhelming majority of black interracial couples still consist of white men with black women. In Britain I saw white guys with super FINE British black women….and I know for a fact that in here in the USA the white guy wouldn’t stand a chance at getting a sista that fine.
I also have a close friend who is one quarter filipino because his black grandmother married a filipino man, so it’s a coincidence that you’ve mentioned this kind of race mixing.
On a odd note: I was NOT AWARE that Fredrick Douglass’s second wife was a white woman, and he even had children with her! I only found this out quite recently.
********************
For educated black men who are doing well and don’t aspire to the usual negative stereotypes. I will say that you are correct that they have many choices in women in an interracial environment(i.e. neighborhoods, places of higher education etc.) , but when these types of “good” black men are in typically all black environments they DO NOT have these advantages. They are typically overlooked cause they don’t hang on the corner, don’t use ebonics to string a conversation together etc. Nonetheless this is a side effect of ghetto trash culture…….where the upwardly mobile person is made out to be the weirdo while Ray-Ray the drug dealer and his lame criminal style is made the norm…..
Yahya,
I think you made a good point about how Black masculinity is perceived. It is not like engineers are celebrated. A lot of black folks look down on you if you speak so called “proper” English. Many black man who sound like their white peers in work or school have their sexuality quesitoned. I know a number of Black academics and professional students who over compensate. They use the n-word gratuitiously just to show they have some street cred. Street cred is equated with masculinity. On the other hand, Black men who maintain regional accents or sound “Black” are looked down upon in the work force.
But I do have a problem with the over association of Black culture with inner city culture or poverty. We need to qualify what we mean by black environments. T There is a significant Black middle class and in many parts of the country there still are Black suburbs.hey are a rather insular bunch, however. I would also think that in hisotrically Black colleges men still have the advantage. A lot of college educated men complain about women from their hood wanting thugs. But imagne if you just got your stuff together, and you’re going out with home girl from the hood and her ex who’s been locked up is about to get out. I’ve seen that type of drama. I’ve also have heard brothers categorize ALL Black women as gold diggers and hood rats, and just in general women with terrible attitudes and no promise. Maybe that is a process of dissassociating, the coping mechanism they use to assimilate.
Well, I can say that while not all blacks are from the inner city, they probably represent the majority. Of course there are black suburbs and they are expanding despite the white flight that takes places…..nontheless it doesn’t represent the majority of black folks unfortunately. I come from the inner city myself but I also live less than an hour away from Prince Georges County in Maryland, which is the wealthiest black suburban area…..and the black there do NOT represent the majority. It not overassociation, though I wish it were.
In historically black colleges,men do NOT automatically have the advantages that one would automatically assume. Just because there are large numbers of females compared to males in a single area at HBCUs, it doesn’t mean that they are looking or very welcoming to being approached, especially with lesbianism and thug-loving still VERY rampant. Even college educated sisters will still date lowlifes and give them the time of day. I don’t know how it is out west where you are, but here in the east this mentality predominates.
Obviously all black women aren’t gold diggers and hood-rats because white guys typically get ones that aren’t….but in a typical urban environment the ghetto mentality appears to be the dominant form of expression.
Yahya,
I live in Northern California in the Bay area. But I have lived on the East Coast, in DC, New York, and Boston. I know a number of Black men and women from Historically Black colleges. Some who are from California and others who grew up in different parts of the country. When compared to places like Stanford or Yale, or even Cal, their experiences are often far more positive in HBCU than in regular universities. There are so many avenues for socializations and many of the Black fraternities and sororities promote concepts like the Black family.
I know that there are some college women who do prefer thugs. But I don’t know a single graduate school woman, out of the hundred that I’ve met in the past few years, who diss a brotha because he’s not a thug. I don’t think that lesbians have cut into the marriage market for men that deeply. I have to really question whether or not eligible brothers were really left out in the cold at HBCUs or in predominately Black professional environments. Often, when brothers come to a place like San Francisco or the Bay Area, they wonder where are the sistas at. But they are not trying to roll to International Blvd in East Oakland, get hyphey and holla at a sister with baby daddy drama. As for the brothas who are attractive and have cool personalities, their education is not working against them. I just don’t see that happening, at all. Now the “nice guys” and push-overs have a tough time. And the ones who don’t have charrisma or are socially awkward and don’t know how to approach women have a tough time. Perhaps it is a matter of perception, when men talk to each other and complain about what they observe. I am not one to wave statistics, but I think that the studies and dozens of articles on this subject indicate that I’m not making a naive point about the struggles that Black women have in finding suitable mates.
assalaamu alaykum,
this thread seems way off topic!
why is blackness such an issue in U.S, i really think AA talk too much about blackness, slavery happened and most of the slaves were from West Africa from some Muslim tribes, get over it pleeeease. It was a fitnah which inshallah the black muslim slaves will be rewarded for enduring. Be proud of whatever you are, I don’t feel that i have to prove how beautiful black women are. if you don’t like them thats your choice.
my husband is white and he married me for the deen and i married him for the same reasons. i can’t really think of any real issues that we have had because we are from diffrent races, people sin whatever colour.
also, most (non-muslim) mixed marriages in uk are white women with black guys but many black couples date each other. the blk afro carriebean brother are dying to marry the asians but the family aint having it! she would have to be one of those run away sisters! from what i’ve been hearing from SOME sisters I’m glad i didn’t marry a black bro becoz SOME/ALOT seemed to messed up! Allah knows best.
I only really notice my husband’s white when i’m really in deep thought, the thing is that he isn’t even one of those street wise white guys who go on like their black!
islaam is beautiful
uk black woman,
Unfortunately race still plays a large part in what happens here in the USA. You’re obviously missing the point of whats being said here, and now you believe that you’re in a superior position cause you’re in the UK or something. I personally never mentioned slavery and I think you need to get over YOURSELF. My spouse isn’t black either, but I don’t think that I’m better than other folks. It’s condescending attitudes such as yours that I’m talking about here………..
Point of the matter is that many of the black bros who have any bit of success are running away in droves, and many of us most certainly don’t have to prove to your ilk that we’re not “messed-up” as you say. As I’ve said before, white men have ALWAYS had access to black women and have always had the ability to be inside of her anytime he wished, so your wonderful marriage is no surprise.
Margari,
No, it isn’t a naive assumption on your part about a shortage of suitable partners for black AMERICAN(not talking about UK etc.) women. Obviously more AA sisters are in college and becoming professionals etc. This much is too obvious even without looking at official stats. Just as you have many AA friends who are educated and don’t like thugs I have just as many educated black male friends(save a few) who end up with women other than AA and basically have the same gripes as mentioned.
Despite the shortage, everything is still a two way street and sisters for their part must share some of the blame with us for the failure of AA relationships. The females always portray themselves as the victims and refuse to accept any culpability along with us AA men for the failure of our relationships.
You touched on something about being socially awkward, or being a “push-over” etc. Typically many of the decent guys are accused of being just like this and then the sisters gravitate to the lowlifes, get dogged out, and then later in life expect a good guy to bail them out of their misery. As far as approaching women goes, it would be fair to say that since women are more “equal” with men in societal terms the women could be a little more proactive in their mate search as opposed to waiting for men to simply approach them, especially with the scowls that many sisters wear on their faces. It would be fair to say that a woman could simply say “hello” to a guy and this will give him an incentive to ” approach her” as you put it. If sisters are walking around with scowls on their faces, and turn the heads away when guys look at them…OR don’t speak back when a brother says hello…then what is the incentive for a brother to keep trying to talk to them? Especially when the foreign black women, the women from other races etc. typically don’t put up this kind of charade. I’m sorry Margari, but it sounds almost like you make fun of the guys that don’t step to you(AA sisters) with a fly line trying to spit some game at you. I know educated brothers like that…and they are the main ones who are the players with multiple women, and screw hookers and strippers at freak parties and fly to Brazil for their annual fuckfests. Interest should be mutual and not a charade of sisters pretending they’re not interested in guys that they really are. This is part of the reason why some of the educated sisters are missing out….and of course the dismal numbers of suitable mates doesn’t help either, but there’s things she can do on her part to be more proactive and at least act interested as opposed to playing the part of the abused damsel.
The AA brothers that are cool and attractive(and educated), even many of them are looking elsewhere for partners. What is the cause of this?
Please keep in mind that when I say “educated” AA brothers I am NOT talking about the poindexters, geeks, and wimps of the world, as anybody knows that these kinds of guys would have trouble getting ANY woman period. I’m talking about straight up athletic types/ upwardly mobile brothers that are having these issues. It isn’t something that I’m just making up because many AA males without criminal records are now voicing their concerns of these issues.
yahya,
woooow,
why all the hostility brother?, I never mentioned you personally in the post. I’ll explain myself, I was commenting on how this thread was about ‘interracial marriage’ which can be between all races but it seems to be focusing on blacks!
The uk does have race issues but I think because most blacks came from west indies they have somewhere to go back to and focus on, unlike AA’s who have much of their history in the U.S.
if you took my words as a personal attack then tell me and i’ll aplogize I’m your sister. as for your statements:
‘you believe that you’re in a superior position cause you’re in the UK or something’
‘you need to get over YOURSELF’
‘As I’ve said before, white men have ALWAYS had access to black women and have always had the ability to be inside of her anytime he wished, so your wonderful marriage is no surprise’
I don’t like them and think you are out of order and see them as a personal attack, whereas I didn’t talk to you personally. I’m assuming that you are a highly educated black man and a good husband, father and good muslim and are free from being messed up! so my words have offended you, please forgive me and know that if my words seemed ‘condescending’ they weren’t meant to be.
I think we can call it a truce because I’m very far away from what you described me with and i hope you will apologize soon inshallaah.
assalaamu alaykum
Yahya,
Sorry to burst your bubble…. please leave the hood (step away from the computer and venture outside the projects.
I know too many educated, HANDSOME, and progressive black men who are married to black women and PREFER to have a Nubian Queen by his side.
Stop the madness brother, the few black men who don’t want a black women are typically the ones who CANNOT get a decent black woman and must
A. RAPE a little hot ass girl from the projects
OR
B. Find the fatness nastiest white chick from the trailor park (the ones the white men don’t want).
Now, I will resume laughing at your asinine comments.
Contrary to popular belief black love is alive and strong. IR marriages/relationships are not the norm in America, regardless of religion they are still about 5% percent so let’s stop faking
btw when i say “RAPE….” I mean an adult (over 21) having sex with a little girl - a child under 18 - statutory rape. Yes, some of them have banging bodies, but if you look at the faces you’ll see they are still children and searching for a father’s love, so they will sleep with any sick CUSSWORD thinking his perverted CUSSWORD loves her. These girls need help, not sick men preying on them.
Wounedsoul -
Do not be so hard on this guy. He obviously has been hurt and wants to take it out on AA women. We all know the most beautiful women in the world are women of African descent. I am happily married to an AA women. We are both professionals and have a loving relationship and hope to live out our lives together.
Allah has blessed me with a wonderful woman and I thank him everyday and try to be the best husband and father.
Many AA are so frustrated with the opposite sex that they demean and degrade their own kind. I thought Al-Islam would make us more critical thinkers and stronger mentally and spirtually. Islam should give us the strength to be wise in our actions and words regarding those in our community.
We are suppose to be the best in our community not a reflection of the ills.
I must live in a cocoon because, it is hard to tell who is a muslim nowadays based upon these posts - where is the strength of faith that Allah is the best of planners
Salam
On the contrary, I find black women to be appealing and beautifull and I always have….cause I’m black myself(duhhhhh). This isn’t the issue. I was basically responding to the fact that many AA women say that there aren’t any suitable mates for them….and all I’m saying here is that despite the fact that AA men have MANY bad issues fro being deadbeats to underacheivers…….the blame goes both ways indeed.
I’ve never denied that black love still exists, and any attempt to say that I’ve stated such is only slander and flaming/shame tactics. I have friends and family that are in stable black relationships, but it still doesn’t change the fact that many successful AA men are looking elsewhere.
Most marriage in the USA involving AA’s are AA’s marrying AA’s,nonetheless our divorce rates are higher and 70% of AA women will never marry unfortunately.
Ron, your so called defense is off base akhi. Like I said, women of African descent ARE beautiful indeed, but I get weary of all of the male bashing that goes on. …and I chose to speak up about it. Secondly, I personally haven’t degrading anyone, but have onlt stated truths that can be found anyplace. Nonetheless your feminist pandering makes it appears as though YOU are the one that indeed lives in the cocoon, and perhaps you should check your own critical thinking skills before making condescending statements. You sound almost like one of those naive muslims who thinks that everything is wonderful in the muslim world and that racism doesn’t exist between muslims. Any, I would congratualte anyone on a successful marriage no matter the race of the partners.
I’m not here to degrade anyone, but to ignore that problems exist in black relationships is a JOKE. It’s time get the problems out on the table and let healing begin.
UK Black lady,
Excuse me for being brusque but due to the fact that my viewpoints aren’t particularly popular with the PC crowd, I have to be on the defensive……………nothing against you at all.
I loved the UK when I was there, but it’s too expensive as everything is doubled the price!
How ironic that I come across this topic now- I just had this conversation this afternoon w/a friend of mine (from PG county no less!). As a practicing, al hamdulilah attractive, educated sister I have come to the conclusion that I am left with only three options w/respect to the marital pursuit: never marry, marry a non-Muslim, or find a non-Muslim who will accept Islam.
I am 26, never married and 5 times engaged. I must say that it certainly is no lie that non-Black men find Black women attractive, but as previously noted, most do not care enough about us to pursue us for marriage. My third fiancee was Pakistani, and not only did his mother refuse to even speak to me, but his extended family had a pow-wow where his uncle beat him w/a bat and broke his arm. All because I am Black. To his credit, he was one of the few men who was upstanding enough to fight for what he believed in but the majority are not.
In the broader society, I do not think that African American women are viewed as less attractive but certainly less desireable, i.e we’re acceptable as the mistress and only rarely as the wife. Amongst Muslims, I think the situation is worse. Negative images and stereotypes about African Americans in general have ravaged the opinions and outlooks of people from overseas. This combined with the ideal beauty standards which are vestiges of colonialism makes interracial relationships w/foreign Muslims (and even second generation American Muslims) less likely for African Americans.
In my opinion, interracial relationships between non-immigrant Muslims (African American,White,Asian,Hispanic) is far more likely.
The fact is the pickins are slim. The numbers are not in favor of Black women. To admit the fact that social pressures that effect the lens thru which I am viewed in no way reflects a poor self-image, it is realistic. The fact that attractive, charismatic, upwardly mobile Muslim men, especially African American Muslim men, tend to turn their backs on Muslim women (if not on practicing Islam entirely) is a fact of life. The statistics on interracial marriages and marriage rates in the African American community are not mythological: we all know several “over the hill” African American sisters who are otherwise great catches.
So what to do?
If you find a Muslim who you are confident loves and cares for you for who you are -and the feeling is mutual-al hamdulilah. God knows it is hard enough to find a good man, who cares if he’s not Black?
“Whats good for the goose is good for the gander”
African American men do it all the time.
Wounded Soul,
Your comments illustrate very properly your screen name here. The only thing here that is assinine is the fact that you are only proving my aforementioned points with your knee jerk reaction. I don’t personally know anyone who dates ugly fat girls from trailer parks etc. in order to feel validated. To say that certain black men CAN’T get decent black women is pure arrogance and a fabrication in order to cover up the fact that black men have CHOICES just as anyone else does and will NOT submit to American entitlement feminism. When a black man goes elsewhere it ’s because he couldn’t getwith or cut it with a black woman? I doubt it….
I know that the truth is pill hard to swallow, but personal flames and shaming tactics don’t prove anything but my premise.
I can agree with you about the rape issue as nobody should be taken advantage of, but I don’t know too many educated guys going around raping young hoodrat girls, especially when they give it up without much prompting.
Kamilah,
I’m sorry to hear about the discrimination that you’ve been through. May Allah bring you the best no matter what race he may be……
Sadly racism is still all too prevalent in the muslim world and the rift between upwradly mobile African-Americans doesn’t help us………
asalaam alaikum
Walaikum Salaam,
No doubt and thank you for the kind words. Al hamdulillah I’m no sob story, but I can only speak of what I know. It’s crazy the things people will say in your presence when they think you’re “one of them”.
Al hamdulilah I wasn’t raised to be codependent and I’m so not even worried about it. But the fact still remains that you have to call a spade a spade.
Why is it that SOME black women feel the need to bash women of other races in order to promote this notion of “black love”?
If a person is happy in their relationship then that is fine, but why do SOME of them feel the need to insult all white women who marry black men as “trailer park trash”? That is definitely a myth.
A black man that CHOOSES a black woman is a strong black man. A black man that CHOOSES other than that is weak? But somehow if a white, Asian, Latin or any other man makes the same choice (to date/marry outside their race) then they somehow not seen as weak. Further, if a black woman marries outside her race, these very same women say “you GO GIRL!”
I agree with Yahya, let people make their choices and leave them alone
yahya,
i need the apology akhee please.
LJ,
i remember having an arguement with a black sister on the topic of hair, she basically cussed european hair so that she could ‘big up’ our (black hair). All the creation of Allaah is beautiful, we all come from Aadam (a.s) and this low self estem that some people have shouldn’t let them put others down. there is a beautiful hadeeth found in ibn katheer’s bidaaya wa nihaaya stories of the prophets book:
Imam Ahmad has narrated from Abu Musa that the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him said:
“Allah has created Adam from a handful (soil) which He had gathered from all over the earth. That is how the children of Adam came according to the (colour and nature of the) earth. There are white among them, as well as red and black, and cross colours. There are those among them who are of bad nature and good nature, soft as well as harsh and in between”.
Sheikh Al-Albani (rahimahullah) declares the hadeeth authentic in Saheeh Al-Jaami’ As-Sagheer wa-Ziyadatuhu (No. 1759) as well as in Silsalatul-Ahaadeeth-as-Saheehah (No. 1630).
if everybody married their own kind we would look so boring!!
p.s please tell me what a ‘desi’ is
Sorry Yahya I am happily married to a wonderful Muslim man I’ve been with for several years. Wounded Soul is my pen name, it reflects my sadness regarding the state of Muslims, you being a prime example.
Now I was not born out of wedlock, do not have any children out of wedlock and NONE from a black man. Frankly, never been into them YET I do not feel a need to bash them because there’s nothing wrong iwth black men, they just don’t do anything for me.
As a black woman I’m sick of boys like yourself who MAY have been rejected by black women or made POOR choices in black women (Ghettto, hood rat, baby mamaa, gold digger,…
insult us. If you aren’t interested SO BE. Call it a knee jerk reaction all you want, but you disgust me. Frankly I feel sorry for you and for any woman you deal with, especially if she isn’t black.
Did a black woman claim you were the father of her child, and it turned out to be someone else?
Is a black woman keeping you from your child?
Seriously, what’s the deal with you brutha?! As I’ve said before I have no interest in a black man, YET I will never insult black men out of respect for my black sons (one drop of black blood…), father, grandfathers, uncles, cousins, friends, and brothers. I don’t have the strength to insult a group of men I have descended from.
Really you concern me, you need some counseling and dhikr to heal that shredded heart of yours. Whoever hurt you, you ought to let it go. I’m sure she isn’t thinking about you and would be honored to know how much power she has over you. Really Get help, you are a miserable and negative soul.
Wounded Soul,
I’m not trying to get into a flame war here, nonetheless you resort to name calling and baseless assumptions about my personal life which only illustrates some issues that you may have yourself. Once again this falls under shaming tactics and if everything is as rosy in your life as you say then my viewpoints wouldn’t annoy you as they do. I never called anyone out of thier name, nor try to suggest that grown people are children(as you’ve called me a boy). Once again this only relfects on your mentality, not mine. All of the issues that you accuse me having experienced are untrue but it’s obvious that you may have had these past issues of rejection and pain at the hands of irresponsible black men, which you try to impose on me. Please believe that as man I would NEVER let any human being abuse me in this way(being treated badly in a relationship etc.)……..
I am quite well and the only reason that I’ve expressed these concerns is because of the fact that black relationships are in bad shape. If you want to deny this then look at the number of AA children growing up in homes where the black women has to be mom and dad.
I would NEVER say that I don’t have an interest in black women cause if I didn’t then I wouldn’t be debating you here.Also there is an African diaspora that actaully exists outside of the USA and Africa believe it or not. Brazil, Cuba, most of the Caribbean etc. have wonderful and beautiful women of African descent that are not infected by entitlement feminism. Just as many of these places have black women that actaully have a strong work ethic and want to build families etc.
Frankly your reply only indicated the tea pot calling the kettle black….as you obviously have issues with black men also. The difference is that I don’t write off all black women as being un-attractive etc.
I saw a documentary recently called “Interracial dating in America” and bascially people of all races were explaining thier experiences and opinions of interracial dating. Some people were for and against it and some people were just outright racist.
Nonetheless, most who viewed the documentary found that black women and white males had the MOST problems with interracial dating(esp. black men dating white women) despite the fact that white men and black women have had access to one another since the beginning of the USA.
The myth that black men can only get ugly, fat. unattractive white reject girls is just as rediculous as saying that black women are ugly etc………….
UK black lady,
Please excuse me if I came of as very harsh. The racial dynamic here in the USA still makes relations between the races quite complicated
Wonderful hadeeths by the way……..
asalaam 3laikum
…..anyway, I apologize to ALL you sisters that I’ve offended. After going back and reading the whole thread I see that my type of dialogue isn’t very productive other than being fodder for debate and confusion. If I express my opinion about a matter then it doesn’t quite come out in way that isn’t perceived as being offensive.
Since people of African-descent(especially males) are appartently at the bottom of the evolutionary totem pole whereas others are concerned I hope that in the end we will be able to improve our relationships and how we interact with one another.
isn’t it sad we have to affirm our beauty by if the other race finds us attractive. why do we find so much beauty in the hideous black people? the whole point is, if you marry , marry well, and to be sure that that man/woman respects you for wo you are.whatever the race- For the naysayers on here who have commented that “noone wants black women, just those with the anglo features” i say your’e wrong.
If noone wanted black women then this world would have ceased to populate itself long ago.
A woman, and especially an attractive woman, black white, hispanic whatever, can pull a man.
And ive yet to see an exception to that.
btw. i am not light skinned or have european features, i am brown and have west african features, many people think i am from senegal. my point is, men of all races, , black,white, lebanese, italians,indians etc have made their interest known to me. and im sure many many black women can say the same thing.
im not trying to disrespect women of other races, but its more than time that we -black people in the black community banish the denigration of our race, especially our women, and that will have to start from within, liking ourselves, and stop trying to align ourselves with the “other” exalhtling the often relatively small the exotic or non existent native american heritage and other that many of us claim to have.
thre is nothing wrong with blending, but we when we try to deny our african heritage and we are always looking to others, we will never be respected. many blacks wonder why are we so hated. yes its because of our history of slavery and racism, but its also because, others can recognize that many of us hate OURSELVES.
believe that.
I am under the distinct impression that racial animus towards blacks relate to only AA. I have studied the demographics of South Asia where the desi are mostly concentrated. I have read stories and studies about the caste system, colorism and negrophobia infecting the minds of Arab and Desi people. Many men and women of African descent are not considered suitable mates in these Arab and Desi populated countries by the non-African people in the ME and S. Asia.
Do we think a change in location will change traditional values, attitudes and opinions toward people of African descent.? No, the attitudes will become even more entrenched in a multicultural society.
Racially mixed societies are the most explosive, unstable and violent on this planet.
We cannot continue to be in denial about this reality for some fanciful colorblind world unlikely to come into fruition.
AA should concentrate on what is natural and nourish AA relationships at all costs to create strong families.
We must continue to look inward and ask ourselves hard questions about process of choosing mates. Is it the process or criteria?
RACIAL HATRED OR RACISM STEMS FROM CONTEMPT OF A PEOPLE? The only way to remove that contempt is to substitute it with respect!!! How do we get respect? We must be able to do for ourselves and not depend on others.
Salam