We Are Family
Marcus has a pretty good summary of a program that was in Philly on the Temple campus. The point about being Muslim - even if one is a Western Muslim convert - automatically detaches you from the West is a good point.
Amongst Suarez’s early questions was one directed towards the imam, who is a Blackamerican Muslim, on how is he able to reconcile his Americaness and his Islam. In other words, his “Easterness” and his “Westerness”. Suarez in a sense alluded to the notion that any and all Muslims, by simply being Muslim, must have some sort of connection to “The East”.
For the sake of this post, I am not going to delve into the responses of the panelists but rather examine the nature of the questions and how large aspects of the American media simply follow suit in sound bite, sloganized journalism, neither introducing nor encouraging new thought or dialog on a topic that goes far beyond “Islam and The West” - which is synonymous language for “us and them”, often conflated to “good and evil”.
Another oft-repeated motif during the talk was, “Americans’ need to understand Islam and Muslims”. During the Q&A session I asked Mr. Suarez and the panelists how they could justify such a question given that the majority of Blackamerican families have at least one member who is a Muslim. A son, a daughter, an uncle and so on(incidentally, this goes beyond the “prison convert” - my brother is dating Bernard Shaw’s daughter (Shaw, if you’re unfamiliar is a prominent Black journalist, famous for his reportage during Gulf War I), whose brother is a Muslim, obviously coming from an affluent background). So in this instance, Islam is known to Blackamericans (Malcolm X being the most famous Black Muslim). So the question needs to be altered to, “which portions of Americans need to understand Islam and Muslims better?” - a.k.a., White Americans.
I would only amend the part about the majority of Black American families having at least one family member to say: The majority of Black American families in the Northeast have at least one family member that is Muslim. I can say with pretty good knowledge that that is not the case in the South and the Midwest where in many cases having a Muslim in the family is still something extremely strange and probably will be for the foreseeable future. However - thinking about it - since more blacks live in the Northeast, it could still be a simple majority, but a black person reading that statement in the South (and having never traveled to the Northeast) would think that was a crazy statement since they almost never see Muslims.
Nonetheless, because of the fact that many (non-Muslim) Black Americans in the Northeast have family that is Muslim, it is seen as less of an “immigrant” thing.
There is an additional caveat that goes along with this alteration and that is, “how much familiarity will it take on the part of White Americans before Muslims can or will be accepted by the white-majority American population?”
The answer to that question: when it is no longer considered to be “cultural apostasy” for a white to become Muslim. In the black community, even where they don’t like Muslims or Islam, they would not consider their family member a cultural or racial “apostate”. It is not seen by the masses of blacks as something outside of being black. It is not strange to see non-Muslim blacks named ‘Jamal’ or ‘Hakim’, but it is very strange to see a white with that name.
But because of that very phenomenon amongst blacks, that helps contribute to the feelings of “cultural apostasy” when a white accepts Islam. This is one reason why it is seen as something outside of “American” by the media. That might change as more whites embrace Islam - hence giving more of them Muslim family members.
However, nowadays most people think of Islam - particularly outside of the Northeast - as almost totally something ”immigrant”. This is why a Western convert is often thrown into the “immigrant” bag even if he/she is not immigrant. That goes back to the first point of automatically associating Western Muslims with “other” when in fact in many cases they in fact not only Western but are family. Blood and family ties are strong bonds. When you don’t have them, you will remain as “other”
Filed under: Black American Muslims, Changing World
In the past, the Muslims when the settled into a land would establish blood ties with the people. That is not happening here
This is hitting on many points. One of the topics I am currently joining with a professor on is why and how Americans, mostly white, view Islam as an Eastern religion but do not view Christianity or Judaism as such. You can view me at thegreattheft.blogspot.com
”my brother is dating Bernard Shaw’s daughter (Shaw, if you’re unfamiliar is a prominent Black journalist, famous for his reportage during Gulf War I), whose brother is a Muslim, obviously coming from an affluent background).”
Thats interesting. One of Benard Shaw’s son is a Muslim and used to be a security guard at Dar us-Salaam in College Park.
nothing like being part of a community than being part of the family. barriers come down when you have a nephew Muhammad or a cousin Latifah. half of some extended families here are muslim
Yusuf, surely it is happening that immigrant Muslims are establishing ‘blood ties’ with the people here, but maybe not as fast as in other historical instances, I would be careful about assumptions though. Things that may have happened for example over decades or even centuries in the past we may not appreciate the fact that they were gradual process over time. But maybe you have more direct study and examples, I would love to hear them.
I love this cultural apostasy point but I know I have a different take on it than some.
My family accepted that me as a Muslim and we remain very close and I think that is beautiful and I would want that to be the case for everyone. At the same time, I hope there always remains as long as this country’s ruling structures are as oppressive as they are a sense that accepting Islam is an apostasy in the sense that one is rejecting the oppression and injustice of this society. I would want sometime to spell this out more at some point but just think about the converts to Islam in the Makkan period…there were some senses in which they were committing cultural apostasy and some senses in which they weren’t. I don’t long for a time when Islam is completely accepted in America because that would mean America has no fear that Muslims are going to threaten the structures of injustice that exist in America. Maybe that’s different for Blackamericans, because even if they are accepted as Americans, they are still usually seen as at least a possible threat, Condoleeza Rice and Clarence Thomas notwithstanding. Speaking as someone who would fit the defintion of a white American I hope there never comes the time when I would be acceptable to the white establishment…yes to cultural apostasy! Umar and Abu Sinan are you with me?
Tariq, I am sure Dr. Jackson has addressed this before…I would love to hear your take or if anyone knows his on this question…
When do you consider the point at which accepting Islam was no longer cultural apostasy during the time of the Prophet (saw) ? Hudaybiyah? Fath al-Makka?
Obviously my first question is regarding the Arabs of the peninsula, I would love to hear perceptions about the same process among other groups in other places in Islamic history.
And drawing our attention to the life of the Prophet (saw) necessarily leads one to better define the distinctions between political and cultural apostasy in that time and today. Obviously the ‘party line’ of Muslim spokespeople and interest groups is that accepting Islam should be neither cultural nor political apostasy in modern day America — this is what I am challenging.
*Scratching head* Abu Noor, what do you, as a European AMerican, mean by “even if they are accepted as Americans?” Please elaborate….naturally we know our roots reside in Africa, as European American roots reside in Europe, not the Caucus Mountains (some of ya’ll don’t know you aren’t caucasian).
Anyway, this caught my attention, “However - thinking about it - since more blacks live in the Northeast.” I believe this is incorrect, the majority of blacks still reside in the south, which includes the DC Metro area (we are in denial in this region)
I’m just grateful someone finally pointed out all of us converted aren’t from the hood, after a while it becomes trite and sickening… I’ll be back after I finish the article
Bint Will,
I am not sure I understand which part of my post you don’t understand but I’ll try to clarify. My point is that while people can question Are Muslim immigrants really American? no one can ask that same question about Blackamericans. Despite this, however, I am arguing that the power structure of this country still sees Blackamericans as at least a problem if not a potential challenge to the status quo that it has to deal with. I am saying that if so called white Americans reach the point where they are fully accepted as being “just as American” as they were before they accepted Islam, it will likely mean that their Islam is not seen as a potential challenge or threat to the status quo. I hope and pray that day never comes…which is to say you will never catch me waving an American flag or proudly proclaiming (as opposed to just factually stating) that I am an “American.”
Allaah knows best.
Abu Noor, I should not have made such an absolute statement, but in the past the Muslim settlers into newly conquered lands were basically forced to establish blood ties with the locals while nowadays people can get on a plane and import a mate.
Yes, some of the immigrants are doing this now but it is few and far between. They are establishing a seperate community
I do hope that white Americans can be accepted as regular normal human beings and hope for the day where islam is not seen as something strange for a white person to do.
Abu Noor: What is meant here is that Islam is seen as a part of “blackness” by the black community itself. Even if one disagrees with Islam, they can not successfully call Muslims “cultural apostates”. Part of that is because Blackamericans are - as Dr Jackson says - a “protest people” and “flag waving” is not part of the culture anyway.
Bint Will: I will look it up, but if I’m not mistaken, the South has the highest percentages of blacks while the Northeast has greater overall numbers.
Exactly Yaa Tariq, which is why I am not comfortable with the American identity but am comfortable with the Irish identity, which if understood correctly (i.e. not the way most hyper assimilated Irish Americans might interpret it) is if not as a “protest people’ certainly as a “rebel people.”
But, anyways, if this is a key aspect of the question then how does that relate to the idea that if simply more whites adopt Islam, this will change this notion of cultural apostasy?
Along those lines, I think that Farid Esack made an important point in his response to a talk by Dr. J (at Harvard I guess) that is online.
How can Americans of all ethnic groups who are Muslim balance the idea of embracing an American identity with the reality of the US as a global imperial power? Just one more reason to reject the rush to Americanize ourselves. (as far as I know and Allaah the Most High most certainly knows best.)
Tariq, According to the Census Bureau,
Percent of the Blackamerican population Percent of total population
United States 100.0 12.7
Northeast 18.1 12.2
Midwest 18.1 10.2
South 55.3 19.8
West 8.6 4.8
So, if your idea that Muslim are relatively unknown among Blackamericans in the south is correct than we may have to rethink the assumption that Islam is accepted as being part of Blackness among all Blackamericans as opposed to among Northern Urban Blackamericans. I truly have no idea but I think it is more of an urban/rural question than a north/south one.
Allaah knows best
Yusuf, that’s exactly the point I was thinking of when responding to you, since travel was so difficult the assumption is that there was a lot of relatively quick intermarriage with migrating Muslim communities. I think however, that if one looks at the tradition of immigration to the U.S. one doesn’t have to fear too much that third and fourth generation immigrants from Muslim lands will intermarry with ‘local people.’ The only question is whether they will try to do with Muslims or whether they will follow the pattern of other immigrant groups and largely intermarry across religious lines as well. Even the Jewish community, which faced significant discrimination historically and had a heavey cultural stress on marrying within the religion. The numbers I have seen are that before 1965, only about 10 percent of Jews married outside the religion, whereas since 1985 more than 50 percent of Jewish people have married non-Jews.
Religiously observant Jews have recognized that this is one factor among many which put the future of the faith at risk. So I am not worried that Muslims will start intermarrying among different ethnic and racial groups, the social reality of this country is such that they will (and I say Alhamdulillaah for that) but the greater question is whether they will seek other Muslims for marriage or whether religious practice and identification will be lost in the assimilation/integration process.
Allaah knows best.
Tariq - Salaams and thanks for posting this here. Good reactions from folks. I would indeed make an addendum to my statement about Muslims in Blackamerican families to, “an increasing phenomenon”. I think that would indeed be closer to the point of what I was intending to make.
Darqawi - I was indeed referring to Shaw’s son. I was talking with my brother’s girlfriend when she asked if I was indeed Muslim and I replied yes, where she informed me that her brother is a Muslim.
I have read some of the points regarding blood ties, and while that is an interesting point, in keeping with what I wrote, Jews did not make great inroads to making blood ties with the rest of WASP America. There were allowed to keep their Ellis Island ethnicity for the most part and where racialized by white America as White [in the same way Italians, Irish, and Greeks, to name a few, were racialized as white when in their Ellis Island inception to this country, they were not].
My points about inclusion or acceptance on the behalf of majority-white America had more to do with immigrant Muslims [1st gen., 2nd gen. ect.] and not with white American converts. My reason being is this is the group that the American media fixates on and is the group this is perceived to be, “the real Muslims”, where Blackamerican Muslims are still treated as “actors”, not bona fide adherents to the religion.
Thanks,
M…
Thank Bint Will for pointing out that most ‘caucasians’ are not actually caucasian. I used to think the term caucasian refered a particular nationality or something when I first heard it as a kid. It’s ironic that some AA’s used to address my race with this term in an attempt to be PC.
In regards to the topic, I think that the rate of acceptance of Islam amongst African American’s, including non-Muslims contributes to the perception of Islam as the great Other thus reinforcing the idea that a white person becoming muslim has apostated from his culture. I do not, of course see this as being intentional on the part of AA’s, except of course the Nation who probably see this as a sign of their dominance. From another angle, one reason for this view of cultural apostacy is that a white person who becomes muslim will find it almost necassary to shed his culture in a way that an AA will not. This is due to the establishment amongst AA muslim who have incorporated ‘being black’ into being muslim, therefore for a white person to be accepted into the muslim community they must adopt either the culture of an immigrant group or the AA muslims - this or accept the fact that their muslim experience will be lonely one. This post is not intended to blame anyone but simply to address a reality as I see it.
Yusuf,
I agree with you about establishing blood ties with the local community, an example of where it happened, in large scale in fact, is the East Africa coast. The Swahili people are the offspring of early Arab traders and the local Bantu people and are to be found all along the coast of Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania plus the whole of Zanzibar. And Kiswahili has become the lingua franca of East Africa, also, I think, the most widely spoken language in sub-saharan Africa. I do not know for sure whether the reason the Arab men married the local women was religion or trade, but the fact is, it happened. Prof. Ali Mazrui would be the best person to answer this.
Anyone who speaks Arabic can understand about 50% of Kiswahili, e.g. alhamisi=thursday, sita=six, saba=seven, tisa = nine, samaki=fish…in fact just by adding an “i” to most words you change from the Arabic to Kiswahili…lol, ok, I exaggerate a bit.
I meant by adding an “i” to words you can change them from the Arabic to Kiswahili, e.g.
But=Lakin=Lakini (kiswahili)
Whenever I am speaking with someone who speaks only Arabic or Somali and I cannot remember the Arabic/Somali word I’m looking for I just use a Kiswahili word in its place and often they’d understand AND correct me…but sometimes it can go horribly wrong also…like this guy who wanted to say “Wilaya” (as in a “province”
which is the same word in both Arabic and Kiswahili but said instead “Malaya” to a group of Kiswahili speaking people, it was at a government event too, unfortunately for him, malaya is kiswahili for prostitute!
Abu Noor: I see the things you mentioned as seperate. I have no other identity than American - meaning that I grew up here, my entire extended family is here and this is my culture - regardless of the policies of the country. What other culture can I claim?
So when one says that I am “Americanizing” myself, then I do not accept the premise because I am American from the start. That doesn’t mean that one has to agree with every single aspect of that culture or all the policies of the current government. Many non-Muslims disagree with American policy, but that does not take away from their being what they are. Part of Irish culture for example is drinking alcohol, but an Irish person that does not drink does not have to say that he is not Irish.
It only confuses us to try to claim another culture (I have known AA brothers to say that they are Sudanese in an attempt to claim a new identity)
Abu Noor and Yusuf,
Travel might not have anything to do with it actually. Arabs intermarry, Asians don’t.
Arab men tend to marry from the host population, look up the migration patterns from Hadramawt and you’ll see that whether it’s to East Timor or East Africa they moved to, Arab men didn’t go back to Yemen for women. This is still the case today, RElatively speaking that is. Arab men in the West tend to marry White women, and because of this have gained an unfair reputation that they are racist and/or close-minded and are rejecting black sisters, but in East Africa, Arab men are perhaps the only immigrant Muslims that marry African women.
The reason there is no significant intermarriage especially here in the U.K is that the majority of Muslims here are of Indo-Pak origin. And they just don’t marry outside their ethnicity. It’s very rare.
There is no intermarriage to speak of between the Asian Muslims in East Africa and the local people. Asians, wherever they are, whether Muslim or not, always create a separate community and there’s no reason to believe that things will change with future generations.
It’s the same in South Africa, although most South African Asians don’t refer to themselves as Indian/Pakistani etc and only see themselves as South African, and most of them are 3rd generation South Africans, they still don’t intermarry.
Abu Noor wrote:
So, if your idea that Muslim are relatively unknown among Blackamericans in the south is correct than we may have to rethink the assumption that Islam is accepted as being part of Blackness among all Blackamericans as opposed to among Northern Urban Blackamericans
I thought that perhaps a simple majority of blacks may have lived in the NE urban areas. Nonetheless, you are right about the above and this was part of my point. Yes, a lot of inroads have been made in the Northeast, but virtually none have been made in the South - other than maybe Atlanta whose culture is more like a NE city than a Southern one.
You can travel throughout rural Mississippi, Arkansas and Alabama and meet many blacks in the various small towns, but it would be very strange to meet a Muslim amongst them. I have met a few - one turned out to be a distant cousin of mine - and they were often the only muslim in town and knew very little about Islam
In these towns, the only Muslim they know in many cases is the Palestinian who owns a gas station on the main highway.
Part of the problem is that I think that we have in some ways “northernized” Islam to the point that it is not a fit with other regional cultures.
For example: The NE is pedestrian and fast paced while in the South is a place people will drive most places and has a slower paced culture. A “dawah table” may work in an urban pedestrian NE environment, but not in the South where you don’t have pedestrian traffic. Being that Southerns are more scattered, they will be much harder to reach (en mass) as well
In spite of all of that, I still don’t think Southern blacks see conversion as “cultural apostasy”. I would think they’d see becoming a Mormon (or in some cases even a Catholic) as “cultural apostasy” more than becoming a Muslim.
Abu Noor,
I am with you, but I want to extend it a bit. You stated that you hope that all white converts to Islam are considered cultural apostates as long as this society is based on injustice and oppression. I am all for that.
But like I said, lets extend that. I think a true Muslim is almost bound to be a “cultural apostate” in ALL cultures as I have yet to hear of one culture or society today that isnt based on oppression and injustice.
Look at Saudi Arabia. It would be hard to find a better example of a country where the prevailing culture is ruled by a power that is absolutely corrupt and absolute in it’s opression of it’s own people. Yet I dont think many people would say that a Saudi Muslim is a cultural apostate would they?
I think that Islam, at it’s base, is almost an complete rejection of culture and the powers that support and uphold the culture. Saudi Arabia is a good example, but it goes for every country.
A Muslim is supposed to fight for freedom and justice. Yet when we look at “Muslim” countries like Saudi Arabia, we see that here in the USA we are farther along on the goal of freedom and justice than they are in the home of the two shrines.
If being opposed to injustice, tyranny and opression makes one a cultural apostate, then every true Muslim is a cultural apostate and it doesnt matter where they live. The problem is 99% of the Muslims in “Muslim” countries think their culture IS Islam.
[...] and in doing so, I used al-Irlandee as an example. You can see al-Irlandee’s comments here. The post on Tariq’s blog is here. And God knows best. « A Religious World [...]
I have taken the time to expound on some of Mr. al-Irlandee’s comments. You can read them here.
I get it from both African-Americans and Jamaicans.
First off, living in the Twin Cities, with a large immigrant and refugee Muslim community it is often the case that people think I’m from another country. (read: East Africa or the Middle East). When I talk to Black people and they discover that I’m American (too) they treat me like a cultural apostate. (They think I should be Christian or least do away with the hijab). Somewhere between the media’s portrayal of Islam as a foreign religion and the large influx of Somalis in the 90’s, suddenly people have forgotten about African-American Muslims (even though the Warith Deen Community here is very active in the AA community.) Some of my mom’s church friends have even gone as far as to ask her if I was adopted! I remember one AA woman I met at a training said to me “wow, you’re really Black!”
Tariq you mentioned the South. I used to live in South Florida and the most trouble I had as a Muslim woman was from Black people (American and Caribbean). Jamaicans (and Jamaican Americans) definitely treat me as a cultural apostate. I’ve had people actually tell me I wasn’t Jamaican anymore that I “tun Arab”. They treat me like I’m an alien that beamed down from Mars. It seems the African-Americans in South Florida don’t get it either. They wondered why I was “doing this” when I wasn’t born in Arabia. It got to the point where I hated to interact with Jamaicans or African-Americans because they would hassle me about being a Muslim.
How wonderful it was when I visited Philly and the D.C. area! I felt like I could breathe…
As salaamu ‘alaykum Tariq,
Identity is a complicated and vitally important thing. I don’t accept the notion that one has to simply accept the identity foisted upon them by circumstance. As Malcolm X famously said to illustrate his claim in certain contexts that Blackamericans were not “Americans” — Just because a cat has kittens in the oven doesn’t make them biscuits.” He rahimullaah realized his experiences were deeply American but he would not simply accept an identity created by others. If people want to argue they are Americans and this is what that means to them, fine. If others want to say I am uncomfortable with that label and here is why, then I don’t see why they should be ridiculed. Terms are important, but what’s more important is what people mean when they use terms.
Americanness can have a cultural definition (or maybe not) it can have a political definition (or maybe not) it can have a geographical definition, etc. etc. Nothing is achieved by telling people who want to think more deeply about the issue Just accept that you’re American. It means nothing without defining what that means. And there is no reason we can’t embrace an identity that doesn’t belong to any nation state. I mean, why are we forced to identify ourselves with a particular nation state? People who allege I am simplistic or wrong in other ways may be correct but I don’t think they have any idea the thought I have put into this, or my background or my study. I ask people not to simply lump me with who they think I sound like and start talking based on emotion, but to look to what I am actually saying and either seek to engage it or ignore it, whatever they choose.
Allaah knows best.
And believe me I know that emotion will always come into play and some of my statements include emotion which is as I would want it, its just that emotion cannot be argued so it cannot be really right or wrong, it just is.
I am not sure if I will respond to you directly or not Marc, suffice it to say that I don’t see much of myself in some of your comments so its probably not worth trying to really explain where I am coming from. I’m just saying I think you’ve misunderstood large parts of what I was trying to say, so maybe your comments can just stand as your own opinion about something really unrelated to me.
What I am saying while I do believe it is grounded in Sunnah, is not meant to be something exclusively related to Islam…I don’t think a believing Jew or Christian or any follower of the Prophets who really tried to convey the message that the Prophets did, would be accepted by America, or perhaps any society or any government. I encourage people to read “The Prophets” by Heschel for a Jewish perspective on this I really admire.
Peace to all.
al-Irlandee, I am still puzzled as to how you think that the Message of the Prophet was somehow “anti-establishment”. Sure, the Message of the Prophet did upset the social balance somewhat but it didn’t destroy it nor was it seeking to just “buck the system”. Actually, if you read both the Qur’an and the Prophet’s biography you will see at more than one point he was more than willing to make great compromises.
Also, the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah was not an exercise in anti-establishment nor in anyway did the Prophet seek to tear down governmental systems but rather reform the morals of those who were in places of power [well, people period]. You will have to forgive me if I find your statement to be a little trite:
I don’t think a believing Jew or Christian or any follower of the Prophets who really tried to convey the message that the Prophets did, would be accepted by America, or perhaps any society or any government.
I encourage you to reexamine the Prophet, his character and his Sunnah, especially from a historical sense, not from an imagined revolutionary point of view. The Prophet was not a Che Guevara nor any other kind of freedom fighter.
manrilla,
I think the discussion we are having is a very important one, but very long. Believe I understand at least some of your point, although I am not sure you understand mine.
Anyone looking at the seerah will realize that the Prophet (saw) was willing to compromise on some issues and he (saw) was not willing to compromise on others. It makes no sense to argue either that he was always willing to compromise nor to argue that he would never compromise. The Prophet (saw) was born and raised in a tribal society on the Arabian peninsula which was governed essentially by tribal custom and a council of respected tribal leaders. His people, whom as you note, he (saw) loved a great deal and wanted nothing but good for, He (saw) went to war with them and fought them with his (saw) own hands. When he had completed his mission and returned to the companionship of the Most High you are right that his most important legacy was a generation of believers (his companions) may Allaah be pleased with all of them who were the most excellent example of slaves of the Most High and servants of humanity. In addition, he (saw) also left a government that ruled by the Qur’an and Sunnah of the One God Allaah, which of course accepted what was good from the previous culture but instantly rejected anything which contradicted the revelation. That society was one which was on a mission to bring the truth of the Prophet (saw) to all of humanity and was willing to face the armies of the most powerful empires of the time in order to do so.
I frankly am unconcerned if you find the statement about followers of true prophetic religion “trite,” it is a deep and important truth which all of us, myself first and foremost must come to terms with. The prophets taught that we should not sleep comfortably if we have one neighbor who is hungry, what then to make of living in the home base of an oppressive global empire which wastes hundreds of billions of dollars on unneeded weapons of mass destruction while most people in the world live on a dollar or two a day? You can throw around whatever names you think are insults but rest assured I will only take them as compliments inshAllaah.
May Allaah (swt) bless you and your family and thank you for your important comments, questions and advice.
Allaah knows best.
By the way Abu Sinan,
I accept your caveat completely. Anyone who thinks my comments imply that any other society on earth today is perfect or that people living in Pakistan should be proud to call themselves Pakistanis or people living in KSA should be glad to call themselves Saudis (perish the thought!) is not understanding what I am saying. There is much good amongst the people in both those societies but people should as Abu Sinan mentioned may Allaah (swt) make us all cultural apostates and make us among the Ghurabaa. Ameen, ya Rabbil Alameen.
Boy…, ‘here goes…
What government are you speaking of? I would say the Prophet left behind a system and a lifestyle, which yes, had rules which could be interpolated and used by governmental bodies, but he didn’t leave behind a parliament or a cabinet of ministers. And as far as “instantly rejecting anything which contradicted revelation” I would ask you to provide some historical evidence of this and to clarify what you envision the aftermath of the Prophet’s death to be? Indeed, I think the issue here is precisely that: “A vision”. You have envisioned a version of Islam that is not historically factual. It is from here that I have most of my issues. Because of your predisposed issues with America, the greater society, globalism, or what ever it may be, you’ve grabbed a hold of Islam and have used it conveniently as a mode of protest.
You continued with:
Indeed, the men and women of that area where very brave but in truth, much of the fighting that took place after the Prophet’s death also had to do with infighting amongst Muslims over power. Some how though, that doesn’t seem to fit in with your Spielberg’esque rendition of Islamic history.
Contuing, you added:
I will not argue with you over the morality that was brought by the various Prophets. But what in the hell does that have to do with cultural apostasy? The Quraysh were card carrying idol worshipers but never once did the Prophet say to his followers, “If you’re with me, if you’re a Muslim, you’re no longer with your tribe”. It was precisely that various treaties and compromises that opened up Islam for many of his followers because they wouldn’t have to become apostates. My God, man! That’s the whole point!
Furthermore:
While it is not my intention to insult you I will not sit idly by and observe someone co-opting the Sunnah for someone to march around with a picket on their shoulder.
And finally:
I can say, without a doubt, you are sorely lacking in any kind of fundamental understanding of Islam, Revelation, the Sunnah and just plain old historical facts. You are more than welcome to run a one-man army against Wal-Mart, Starbucks or any other symptom of globalization and “injustice”. I have personally witnessed the crippling effects of this kind of ridiculous mentality in the Blackamerican community, Muslim or not. So perhaps you will understand why my stance against you and more precisely, your ideology, is vehement.
And God knows best...
Marc,
You continue to make assumptions about what I think that are neither fair from what I have said nor accurate to the truth.
Allaah knows best which of us knows or has studied more about the seerah, but I will advise you in the future that simply stating repeatedly that someone else is ignorant (and I guess that you are so knowledgeable) does not make it so.
There is no point to further discussion with you, since as I mentioned earlier you seem to be responding not to me but to some idea you have of an ideology which you have ascribed me to.
Salaam.
But there IS cultural apostasy by some white converts! I see it all the time when Jenny becomes Jamila al-LuzAngeliyya, starts wearing cheap cloth from Pakistan covered with thick coats from Syria and pseudo-arabicizes her speech and withdraws from participating in society and decides to work against her own people so she IS a cultural apostate. Now, if Jenny kept her name, prayed in her jeans and sweaters with a scarf, and continued to engage in society and keep up with the rest of American culture, she could NOT be considered a cultural apostate.
But, we have this myth, a strong myth that turning to believing in the One and in the Prophethood of Muhammad means we must also stop being culturally American. This is a myth that I never want to be true.
Islam in Blackamerican communities, AFAIK, seems to be understood by some as returning to an African identity in the form of an African religion, so perhaps that is why it is relatively culturally acceptable. For whites, we are not returning to some previous pre-slave culture but instead are adopting often the cultures of immigrant Muslims. I think this is becoming less and less, but then whites who do not culturally “convert” to Muslim cultures are seen as apostates from Islam almost, isn’t it so?
OmarG youve got a point as white converts that do not adopt a Muslim culture are accused of “still acting like a white boy” or not really grasping islam. I’ve seen it. You are also right about blacks feeling a return to a cultural identity but that is probably a hold over from the NOI calling Islam “the black man’s religion”
The “default” Muslim in the South is a Pakistani, Arab or some kind of immigrant while the rest are imposters
Abu Noor:
I have to disagree with you. I feel that we have made the culture for whites to be such that only those who have white guilt and want to be latino or black can accept Islam. Then there is this Marxist revolutionary element that I really don’t like that is on top of it.
A white person doesn’t have to become an honorary Arab, Pakistani black or Latino when they accept Islam, but why do so many feel that they do? I’ll tell you why: because we have made it that way. If we are telling people - directly or indirectly - that they must adopt another culture and become an identity crisis muslim, then we will continue to lose people. As OmarG and Jamal said above we almost run away a white muslim that is “too white”
When you are walking down the street do you think they see an Irishman or an American?
I say this in all sincerety, that you need to travel and you will find out what you are. It was not until I went overseas that I found out that I am what I was born as. I may be of Irish decent, but at the end of the day I am an American, this is my culture and this is where I grew up. I don’t speak with an American accent and not an Irish one.
Farooq:
I’d say 95% of the Muslims in the South are immigrant. In some places in the South you might have one convert in the entire masjid.
Abu Noor,
Furthermore I will say this, when you are walking down the street on the West Side of Chicago, no matter how bad you wanna be down, you are just another whiteboy to people who don’t know you and if there is some “glorious” revolution such as you yearn for they would throw your butt in the fryer of the nearest chop suey joint.
Akh, 90% of what you say is straight of the playbook of the far Left and you sound much more like them than you do a Muslim most of the time.
Furthermore, you are an American, you grew up here and your parents probbably did as well, you are a thousand times more an American than you are Irish and by your own admission you have never been outside of the country. Do your parents and siblings not think of themselves as Americans? That is bad dawah, it is telling white people you have to be some kind of a left-wing eccentric nut once you take shahadah or as I said earlier a jock rider to some other culture.
If the American identity is strictly about oppression and all things evil why not leave? Maybe then you will find out that there are problems in every culture and society.
The problem with guilty white liberals such as yourself (because that is where this is coming from as it has nothing to do with Islam) is that you only see and criticize the problems in America and white people and ignore the problems of the rest of the world. You are afraid of making people mad so you ignore problems when you see them in that community and then blame it all on the white man (who you see as someone else but they see as you and your family). You then put yourself in the role of being the flunkie and yes man for every half-baked revolutionary who is trying to con you out of something (and all the black people know they are full of it but you are naive enough to stick around).
To the rest of the Muslims, if you have such a problem with this country then do not be a phony and stay here go to these great and prosperous Muslim nations such as Afghanistan and Sudan, I am sure you will have a good time there.
Hmmm, there seems to be several debates going on. I find it hard to figure out what to really engage with.
But find the notion of cultural apostasy hard to accept. Converting to Islam does not mean apostating from your culture. No culture, and especially American, is fixed. There is always borrowing and blending (I guess this complicates my entry on culture vultures). Conversion to Islam does not mean shedding your culture. (How are we defining culture anyways because that is contested). For my purposes here, I will talk about culture as both symbolic meaning, music, beliefs, norms, and practices.
Culture is renegotiated through generations. Culture changes from epoch to epoch, region to region, state to state, city to city, family to family, and even person to person. Even if I change the style of dress and rock an abaya, add some curry in my diet, remove all the furniture in my apartment, I’m still shaped by the worldviews, sensibilities, and values from my upbringing in America.
I’ve been Muslim 14 years and I’ve adopted many Islamic cultural practices, but I’m still very American. I’m so American, that when I’m abroad my Americaness can be spotted blocks away even when I’m travelling incognegro. No matter how hard some of the folks try, to be Arab, Desi, African, or Malaysian they are still American. Many African American/ Black American, converts see islam as moving closer to their African roots. But many still aren’t adopting African cultural practices. Even the AA who moved back to Ghana, and live there now, are still living in their little enclave communities treating native Ghanaians like dirt. Worst yet is the sordid history of the freed American slaves who established Liberia (the colonial project that excluded native Africans was the reason for the civil war). I agree with Umar, when you go abroad (even to Europe) you see how American you really are.
So far, Islam is not seen as part of the American identity. But so much attention is focused on us, as a community. And for Islamaphobes, so much attention is on us as this possible fifth column or sleeper cell–whatever. At the same time, I don’t think that Abu Noor was completely identifying American identity with oppression. But I don’t find his interpretation of early Islam as offensive as others. In fact, it reminds me of Latin American liberation theology. I think he was talking about the establishment (whatever that is), which defines American culture.
Also, I have issues with analysis that robs the working class, women, and ethnic minorities of their agency. We are not some pawns walking around aimless and controlled by false consciousness. Minority cultures do play a part in shaping the dominant culture. It happens in complex and dynamic ways.There was a time when folks (Irish, Eastern Europeans, and Southern Europeans) thought that certain populations could not assimilate into American society. Author Schlessinger claims that multiculturalism is fragmenting American society which he sees as built upon WASP culture and the ability of others to assimilate to it.
I have problems with Marxist ideologies. I get hives when I read the word proletariat and class struggle. But I do find some Marxist critiques useful, especially when looking at class analysis and the effects of Globalization in many communities. But, in fact, there are theories are more developed than classic Marxist focus on class struggle and exploitation of labor, to World systems theory which focuses on the accumulation of capital, World systems theory. I am not an advocate of world systems theory either, but I do have problems with those who dismiss the detrimental affects of globalization and neo-liberalism (World Bank, IMF, and Structural Adjustment programs) in developing nations. It is not about picking up and leaving. But I am interested in educating our future leaders (OUR children) to be ethical and responsbilble Americans and citizens of the world, which I see as fully in accordance to Islamic values.
Its true that only when I went abroad for some months many years ago that I realized that I can’t change being American and that, gasp, I actually liked it. After leaving the one country I was in and going to another, the house I stayed in had some international cable NBC channel. For the nights I was there I watched, of all things, The Tonight Show and that little bit of American Pop Culture was strangely comforting to me. Strange, but Jay Leno made me miss home…
As salaamu ‘alaykum,
I had a longer response to Umar but alhamdulillaah it got lost in trying to post it.
Thanks for your post Sr. Margari.
I do think people, other than her, are larger misconstruing what I wrote about cultural apostasy. I think there is a lot of confusion because the whole notion of ‘apostasy’ and on the other hand ‘identity’ work two ways. The majority culture sees accepting Islam as a type of cultural apostasy, this is regardless of whether the particular convert goes around all the time talking about how American he/she is, or even, waving a flag. On the other hand, someone like me could consciously refuse to identify myself as an American, but then people always want to tell me how everyone walking down the street knows I am an American.
I am unapologetic for my position that there are serious systemic changes in America which require ‘revolutionary’ change. I will say that I think that all the commenters who are referring to “Marxism” should do a little more reading. Marxism is not synonymous with revolution, as there are many other types of revolution and have historically been many revolutions that had nothing to do with Marxism. So, criticize me for being a revolutionary if you want, but it’s ignorant to accuse me of being a Marxist.
Allaah knows best.
I also encourage people interested in understanding how the concept of Prophetic religion relates to this to read, as I recommended earlier, Heschel’s book “The Prophets” and also David Chappell’s book “A Stone of Hope: Prophetic Religion and the Death of Jim Crow.” Summary: In a provacative assessment of the success of the civil rights movement, David Chappell reconsiders the intellectual roots of civil rights reform, showing how the prophetic tradition of the Old Testament — sometimes translated into secular language — drove African American activists to unprecedented solidarity and self-sacrifice. Martin Luther King, Jr., Fannie Lou Hame, James Lawson, Modjeska Simkins and other black leaders believed, as the Hebrew prophets believed, that they had to STAND APART FROM SOCIETY AND INSTIGATE DRAMATIC CHANGES TO FORCE AN UNWILLING WORLD TO ABANDON ITS SINFUL WAYS. Although segregationists outvoted and outgunned black integrationists, the segregationists lost, Chappell concludes, largely because they did not have a religious commitment to their cause.
(Sorry about the all caps but I don’t know any other way to highlight part of my comment). Anyways I really recommend both books. The ideas are too complicated for me to justice to them here.
Peace.
Abu Noor, you are talking about two seperate issues and merging them. Martin Luther King was not a “cultural apostate”. He looked, spoke and thought as an American 100%. Being part of a culture does not prevent them from speaking out about right and wrong. How did Martin Luther King dress? What language did he speak? Was his culture different from the masses?
Had Martin Luther King run around trying to adopt another culture he would probably have been a joke. Do you see the difference? We can be a part of a culture and still instigate needed changes. One can eat curry or hummus and wear a thobe and not implement a single social change but on the other hand one could still eat and dress like an American and implement many social changes. Further, many Americans will look at us at see that Pakistani or Arab culture is no better for us to adopt. So these are totally seperate arguments.
As salaamu ‘alaykum Jamal,
Jazzak Allaah for your response but I honestly don’t think you know what I’m talking about — have you read either book?
Many of the commenterse seem oddly obsessed with food and dress — do you guys stop and think about what you are saying? Guess what, a lot of Americans eat hummos and kabobs. A lot of white English people eat curry. A lot of people in the Muslim world dress in pants and white button down shirts with ties, does this make them Americans? Do Americans dress the same now as they did 100 years ago, 10 years ago? I have never liked wearing jeans, is this a problem for my Americanness? Please, people, raise the level of discussion. I could care less about what clothese people wear or what food they eat. That is not my identity. I’m talking about ideas, I’m talking about deen, I’m talking about worldview, ‘aqeedah. I’m talking about who one allies with and who one considers their leaders.
In many ways MLK was very American, in others he was completely un-American (nonviolence? hello! — violence is as American as cherry pie) Some of his ideas came from America and its founding fathers, some came from the bible, some came from Gandhi. Look at the next generation, look at someone like Bob Moses, look at H. Rap Brown, look at Kwame Toure (Stokely Carmichael) Guess what people did start consciously dressing in a way they felt was African, some just in a way they felt was ‘revoultionary.’ Was that important in some ways, sure. Is that what I am talking about…no! So maybe you are correct Jamal, if everyone thinks this discussion is about food and clothes, then I have been talking about something different from the start, I have been talking about something that matters. I am not entering into the completely boring (to me) discussion that others seem to find endlessly fascinating about how all the converts act Pakistani or act Arab. People (myself too sometimes)love to babble endlessly about superficial things like clothes and whether so and so can use the n word…guess what it’s boring and these are not the issues I’m talking about.
Yes, the Prophets dressed the same as their people…yes they were still apart from the society and viewed as cultural apostates….because they had a whole different way of viewing the universe than the people of their societies. “American culture” always has been a mix of whoever happened to be here….that’s not what I care about.
Anyways, Jazzak Allaahu Khayr.
So Abu Noor, do you see how one can get confused when you are talking culture on one hand and ideas on the other? I see them as separate as two people from the same culture can disagree on ideas. There are Arab and Pakistani Communists and will agree with American communists. This doesn’t make their culture the same. I am not disagreeing with you, you just hadto clarify because it seemed that you were saying that we must completely divorce ourselves from our background and the things we like. It may be mundane and boring (condecention?) to you, but this is an important point and causes confusing in our children my friend. I wasn’t attacking you, but just needed some clarification. I see the issues as separate and both legitamate. I don’t think anyone would disagree that the major issues you mentioned need to be changed maybe that is why I misunderstood you
MLK associated partners with his Lord and was a womanizer. Not my idea of a “revolutionary”
Jamal,
I feel you Jamal. I apologize if you felt my response was attacking you, it was as you said designed to clarify the points I was making (and then kind of to attack (or hopefully just challenge) some of the other commenters astaghfurAllaah).
As I’ve commented before, although I don’t find it to be as much of an issue as you and others obviously do, I will certainly agree that Islam does not require one to reject things like food or language or clothing or anything else from their culture that appeals to them as long as it is halaal. I think you’ve done a service in enlightening me to some of the ways in which my comments are misunderstood by others and perhaps there is not really as much difference as I sometimes fear. May Allaah reward you with good.
Don’t worry everyone else, I do know that most of you still disagree with me and in many ways I AM out there all alone. At this point in my life, I have resigned myself to that.
All Praise is Due to the Lord of the Worlds,
Allaah knows best,
Peace.
We are all in the same boat Abu Noor…there may be small disagreements, but nonetheless you are not alone
“One can eat curry or hummus and wear a thobe and not implement a single social change”
Hmmmm, that’s what the American Muslim community has been doing for years: Eating Hummus and curry, doing nothing and feeling self-righteous while criticizing Americans.
Haha, that was kinda funny Margari. I would say that most people of all faiths prefer to sit around acting self-righteous while criticizing the immoral Americans. Its a fact of life. People loooove to talk about how much better they are than other people. Especially the muslim community when you get them started on the horrible American kuffar LOL
I guess it all depends who you hang out with.
Most of the conversations I’ve heard while eating hummos (or hot dogs) with other Muslims involved more criticism of other Muslims than anyone else. Just check out the past conversations had on this blog.
May Allaah (swt) allow all of us to do better and to look to our own individual shortcomings before anyone else’s, Muslim or not.
Observation: In regards to the perception of of those who have posted here that Islam is in some way a form of social revolution or civil disobedience. It has always seemed to me that this stance is more influenced by a convert’s pre-Islamic orientation than by what that person has experienced as a Muslim. For example, a person who was some sort of an activist or involved a sub-culture or counter-culture seems more likely to perceive their adopted religion, Islam, as an extension of that mentality.
This has gotten quick hilarious. It appears that no matter how many voices chime in, no one is able understand al-Irlandee. C’mon, akh. You gotta find another line to use. You’re getting hyper-defensive because people are dismantling your argument, which is pretty weak. It also offends a great many people here, myself included.
I will make this clear: I do not morally condemn you in anyway. You seem to think I’m a bully and “don’t like you”. I never said that I didn’t like you and never made any allegations towards your morality. On the contrary, you seem to be a person that is concerned with morality, which is a good thing [not being facetious here]. Rather, my bone to pick with you centers around two things:
1) You co-opting the Sunnah and your interpretation of the Sunnah as well as other historical events which simply under even rudimentary scholarship, don’t hold weight.
2) The scope in which you seek to assert your opinion. I have problem with you having your own opinion. But when you attempt to move that opinion beyond your own person I am obliged to step in and counter it. Obliged as a Muslim and as an American.
If your only response to people who disagree with you, provide you with fairly solid arguments over your theories and you simply respond by taking you marbles and leaving the sandbox, again, you need to reexamine your Islam and it’s validity and longevity for yourself. Take this as “nasiyhah”.
Correction:
Should read:
Abu Abdillah,
Yes, and of course, why wouldn’t it have some effect on them? But should we not focus on the scope that these certain individuals attempt to present vs. their own [and rightly so] personal statements? My two cents…