Since my posts on the disastrous stranger marriages received so much interest (I still get emails about it) many of you will find this post to be of interest
My two African American friends are both as I said wonderful friends to me. I talk to them both atleast twice a month, (which is a lot considering how expensive it is to call the States from here). The thing is that both are divorced. Hajar has been divorced many times and has a couple of children from those marriages and Maleekah just recently went through her first divorce after waiting many years to wed and is expecting her first baby all by herself. While myself and all my Indian and Pakistanian friends , some of who have less zeal (not all!) for Islam than either Hajar or Maleekah, have been married for many years and have seemingly happy and solid relationships with their husbands.
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Hajar and Maleeka both have only been married to African American men. My other friends are all married to either Arabs (as I am), white Americans or Asian Muslim men. I’ll be blunt from here on out. The problem that many religious Muslim sisters of color have with marriage or staying married is that they chose the wrong men to marry from the beginning. And to be even more blunt, religious Muslim women of color have the hardest of times with African American and Latino brothers. [More...]
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Wife Abuse and Complete Stranger Marriage
Filed under: Black American Muslims, Convert Issues, Muslim Isolation, The Culture of Denial and Pretense | Tagged: Stranger Marriage
I think she just threw Latinos in there for PC purposes because I haven’t heard about them having the problems that African Americans have in muslim marriage.
i think another good topic would be on the issue of “wife dumping”. This happens alot in my city.
Brothers get married and then after a few years, they send their wives back to their home country (the man’s, not the womans) to raise the kids. They see them once a year or so and funnel the money from the USA to support the financial end.
This is so bizarre to me.
Brothers get married and then after a few years, they send their wives back to their home country (the man’s, not the womans) to raise the kids. They see them once a year or so and funnel the money from the USA to support the financial end.
Many brothers do this with the intent of moving back with the family at some point because they don’t want the kids being raised here in the US. It becomes impractical for many as they have to keep traveling back and forth and never get to move back so they bring the family back at some point.
Fairuza,
It also has to do with the idea that it is much cheaper to raise the kids in these countries. It then frees up money and the men often get married here again. You can support a family “back home” for very cheap and if you have a decent job can more than afford to start a new one here.
Of course that doesnt help the wife or the kids left in limbo, but these guys dont care about that.
Okay, my question is…if there is NO WIFE around, how do these Bros take care of their, eh-hem, physical needs? I also do not think it is Islamic in any way, shape or form to leave your kids to be raised by the Mother alone. Where is the Father figure for the kids, where is the companionship for the women? I am just upset because this happens all the time and nobody says a word about it. And I am no scholar, but I highly doubt that the Prophet (pbuh) would look favorably on such a set-up. Back in His time (pbuh), the only reason the men left their wives were for the sake of battle or spreading Islam. Now Bros leave there family behind to drive a cab all day and work at a gas station by night. It seems the motivation is all for Dunia. And what good is it for a kid to be raised in an “Islamic” country but have an ABSENTEE DAD? Arrgggh.
I am really sensitive about this because it happened to one of my best friends.
I would really like to see a larger post on this topic because it is an important issue.
I had to take issue with a lot of what she was saying. Since I don’t want to repeat what I said over there I encourage you to take a look Tariq (and others).
Also, Uthman, I was thinking the same thing. I’ve heard about some things with Latino brothers but not to the extent that I’ve heard about African-American bros.
The points of the above poster and of Mommamu should have been noted within the original blog-post. I know the situation in the US is quote different from us in the UK for example but there does seem to be this constant blame on black brothers in the West. The amount of rash and naive Muslim bloggers that are peddling these sentiments against the black brothers of the West are so abundant that one has almost lost count of the amount of times these views emerge.
As for blindly singing the praises of the Arabs, Indians and Pakistanis then this is nothing but naivete. I am rather surprised that one can seem to discount:
1. Forced marriages
2. Honour killings - wherein wives can be openly slaughtered in front of the community - with the tacit approval of the community in many cases
3. Sexual and physical abuse within marriage
4. Adultery
5. Lack of zeal to implement Islamic correctly.
6. Control freakery
7. Mere using of sisters due to economic and social interests by desperately wanting to reside in the UK or US.
8. Sexual perversion
9. Biased and fanatical adherence to culture.
10. Domestic violence
…and a whole host of other ingredients that can be found within many Arab, Pakistani and Indian ‘marriages’ which some sisters have come to believe are the peak of spousal bliss! Indeed, the above points make “lying to laziness to polygamy to extreme poverty…” seem rather light in comparison. So for the sister to say that “…our Middle Eastern brothers are also a wonderful option” seems naive to say the least. as it is well known that they do not really go for black women and I am not including north-Africans in this, but the “Middle Eastern” who were alluded to in the post.
However, I do accept that the sister did emphasise that the sisters have to much mor eprudent in their selection of a husband and not be merely on a rash hype thing wherein a personality brother or a false claimant to righteousness and deen is chosen.
AbdulHaq al-Ashanti
Interesting
Recently my father asked whether Muslims take marriage seriously or not. I’m beginning to believe we don’t… my siblings have been with the same spouse for at least 20 years, parents married, BOTH sets of grandparents married, friends, and cousins married, yet when I sit amongst the Muslims I see and read about the opposite.
Are we really serious about our marriages? How are we selecting our mates? Why are brothers divorcing their wives over frivilous matters? Should masjids institutue pre-maritial counseling (minimum six months) as many churches do?
Fairuza,
I do not think it is Islamic, I actually find such behavior to be barely human. Physical needs? One’s children SHOULD be above that in a person’s concerns, it is sad that they are not.
I cannot image being separated from my children for any lengthy period of time. I love my boys more than I love myself so sending them away, for any reason, is out of the question.
I agree with your thoughts 100%. These people care nothing for the Prophet or his example, they care nothing for Islam. They care only about themselves.
My response to the sister’s website
Assalaam’Alaykum
1) Promoting victimization, endorsing the abdication of personal responsibility, and defining dysfunctional family systems as being “patented” by African Americans or Latin’s is a miserable failure at offering solutions.
2) African American women who are adults are not victims in the demise of their marriages, families, well being, and quality of life. Apart of being an adult is taking care of yourself-apart of taking care of yourself is making responsible life decisions. Blaming external factors as the causes to your own failure is not going to ease the pain, frustration, and distress you’re likely to experience from the consequences to making poor decisions. The method often utilized by the MAJORITY of Muslims concerning marriage is : haste-fullness, recklessness, and down right insanity. That is not uniquely a “African American” or a “Convert” problem, it is by and large, a “Muslim” problem. The truth and reality can be very difficult to accept so it’s allot easier to blame and shame some one else instead. The real deal is that as humans we behave our way into or out of a situation. The real deal is that as humans we think the thoughts, we feel the feelings, and we make the choices into or out of a situation. The real deal is that red flags such as fraud, unemployment, mental illness, sexually transmitted diseases, fatherlessness, financial ruin, and spiritual emptiness were prevalent long before the marriage was ever finalized. The real deal is that many of us allow desperation, loneliness, isolation, libido and lust to drive us right into a crash called divorce.
3) The ethnic immigrant Muslim Community would do well to either put up or shut up. Put your money where your mouth is. Stop complaining, venting, slandering, and demoralizing African Americans as if were a monolithic group of people devoid of humanness. Require a higher caliber in the selection of Islamic clergy and Islamic leadership. Many Imams have no license and no training in marriage/family counseling, pastoral counseling, or social work. Many of the “African Americans” you’re complaining about often sought intervention with their local Islamic clergy who often times offered nothing but clearly extremist, patriarchy, and distorted advice at alleviating the pain these families live with. The truth is that the deen is being used as a weapon that just serves to reinforce any pathology/ dysfunction already occurring within these families units. What a sorry and pathetic state of affairs becuase the spirit of Islam should be a vehicle to success and healthiness. Instead it is a passport to drudgery, poverty, illiteracy, abuse, and instability for many of the people you are complaining about. The Department of Social Services See’s it but becuase they half to remain political correct or neutral becuase religion is involved they can’t come out and say it directly. But you better best believe it’s a strong undercurrent to how they serve THE ENITRE Muslim community.
4) The ethnic immigrant Muslim Community has failed miserably in their out reach to middle class and upper middle class African Americans. This population of African Americans is where you are most likely to find stable families becuase marital/familial stability is directly tied to economic stability. Multiple marriages and abandoned children would be scoffed at in many circles of the black elite, but then again, the immigrant Muslims are unaware of this becuase they are sitting toe to toe with the likes of Colin Powell or some one similar in stature. As a revert, I’ve never seen such brokenness in families until converting to Islam. I’ve been to Bishop T.D. Jake’s church/congregations, and similar religious organizations. I’ve seen nothing but legions of strong, and stable Black men and black families. Bishop T.D. Jake’s has succeeded in what the best Imams in the Muslim community can’t do. They can’t even touch the magnitude of his success.
5) I’m not perfect. I’m not going to sit behind some computer screen blogging away at how righteous I am becuase of my ethnic group, language, or my perceived adherence to Islam. Allah is the best of judges and the best of planners. With that being said, I can’t leave this article in good conscience with out saying that Allah has granted all of mankind an internal radar system that sends each and everyone of us warning messages when were about to make a foolish, reckless, insane decision. Many of choose to disregard those warning signs to drive straight through a red light, and than cry foul when we crash. We cry foul when we can’t handle the consequences. Many of chose to disregard those warning signs becuase a) undiagnosed/untreated mental illness b) misguided notions of Islam c) low self-esteem or d) which is the saddest of all, we gave up on ourselves and our children. We abandoned hope in exchange for fatalism. The truth hurts and many don’t want to hear it but I believe it’s their problem not mine.
6) The majority of Sunni mainstream African American Muslim women have been taught they are prohibited from marrying non-Muslim men. I think this should be re-examined and that African American Muslim women may fair so much better if they didn’t have their options limited by everybody else. I’ve met nothing but dynamic, exceptional African American Men while attending Bishop T.D. Jakes congregation and others like it. I’m not buying this myth they don’t exist at all.
And for the record, I’m an African America Muslima married to a African brother.
Iron Fist:
While what you said is true that Muslims have failed to reach out to educated AA males, the proposition of Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men is not an option.
Yusuf,
That may be so, but I am seeing a lot of Muslimas marrying nonMuslim men these days. If I weren’t married, that would be an OPTION for this sister because the quality of brothers (regardless of born or convert, or ethnicity) is lacking, many are BOYS in a man’s body. What can we do as Muslimas when brothers do not want to work through maritial problems? aaah my love I don’t like this meal or your non Muslim father came inside my home… enty Talek! Well this is proof they don’t know thier deen, because divorce is not this simple. Really, marriage isn’t a bed of roses, it takes work.
Brothers need to get their act together and it’s not just the black men. I was married to an Arab man before and it was nightmare. He’d always tell me he’d kill me if I ever left him because THEY don’t believe in divorce…I took that chance and walked out with only the clothes on my back and never looked back because I finally woke up and got to the point where I had to swallow my pride and get the heck out of dodge… SOrry too many women are staying in bad marriages… it turns my stomach. If I told you the names of the sisters who are suffering in silence most of you would faint… these are the wives of well known ARab and SE Asian men in our communities…the ones we say, “Mashallah.. he’s a good brother.”
If I told you the names of the brothers with girlfriends on the side, many familiar names would pop up…but that’s not a secret.
Why do you think so many of us Muslim women are depressed?! This is a realilty, but I have learned to fake like I don’t see anything
btw… today’s nonMuslims are NOT people of the book, so truth be told it’s not an option for a man of taqwa either. there are conditions to marrying a nonMuslim woman … she must be chaste (not have her hymen repair as is the new trend), he must give her dawah and she must raise the children as Muslims.
Who’s kidding who today?
Assalaam’Alaykum
Brother Yusuf:
I respectfully disagree with your position that we can not marry non-Muslim men. I find that the harshest forms of sheria or Islam is enforced on AA Muslims while immigrant Muslims get away with murder.
Many Arab Muslim women in particular are married to non-Muslim men and I don’t see many Imams coming down hard on them? Why is that?
There are scholars that disagree on the issue of us( Muslim women) marrying a non -Muslim man provided that we can raise the children as Muslim, and practice our deen with out hardship.
If AA Muslimas want an AA man I’d encourage you to broaden your pool by considering non-Muslim men. It’s your decision,. You’re not marrying the Muslim community, you’re marrying an individual.
Good luck
I’m surprised nobody else has said this:
Why in the hell would any healthy, well educated, well cultured, and highly esteemed African American man want to join the Muslim community knowing this is how they are perceived?
Hello? Where is the logic in that decision?
My brother is a Medical Student and has been approached by Arab Muslims about Islam but already knows the strife associated with the experience and refuses to deal with it. My other brother has made a career in the military and had a brief stint as a Muslim. He’s no longer Muslim.
For many African American men, their place of worship was a place where their spirit was nurtured, encouraged, empowered, and edified. Historically speaking, in times when they were less accepted due to segregation, they could go to their place of worship, and be respected. Why in the hell would they choose to give their time to a group of people of put themselves in a situation wear they are constantly being torn down?
Hello? Where is the logic in that?
There are legitimate reasons many of the black middle class and upper middle class refuse to become Muslim.
Anybody ever think about that?
Wounded Soul
Sadly enough, I think it would be a cold day in Jehenam before Muslims instituted pre-marital counseling as a pre-req to marriage.
Too many Muslims would say that the delay would lead to fitna and fornication. Unfortunately, they never see past the immediate and into the future when you have two people married to each other with no clue as to who they are really living with and then the inevitable side effect of divorce after divorce after divorce.
I seriously think Muslims have the highest divorce rate of any religious group in this country. i wonder if there are any stats on this.
The Sheikhs in our community finally wised up and demanded that all newly married couples submit apps for LEGAL CIVIL MARRAIGE immediately after the Nikah. It’s a small step in the right direction. At least they are promoting accountibilty
AA muslim women should marry non-muslim men who have high moral character. Why should AA women not explore those options. By the way, AA muslim women are extremely attractive to non-muslim men. The hijab really compliments them and adds an air of mystery to their persona.
I am AA male muslim by the way.
Salam
Yes, I agree Fairuzamizna it’s a small step in the right direction.
Although it was inappropriate Islamically, my husband and I “dated”before we got married, my father also told him how he will NOT treat his daughter. We got to know each other’s families and friends, and I didn’t have the stress having to give myself a strange man because it’s was his right. I am not endorsing unislamic behavior, but I went through the masjid appointed wali and MashaAllah good man route, it was a disaster for me.
On the flip side, I have a very dear white friend, who’s married to an Arab man. He treats her like crap. The last time I went to her house, he kicked in…in front of me because we came back later than expected. Her children even kicks her butt. Why does she stay?
I also have another white friend married to an Indian brotehr, she’s treated like dirt too. Every time I see her, she has tears in her eyes.
I seriously doubt there is baraka in these type of patience which MANY muslimahs endure each and every day.
The point is our brothers (as well as sisters) need some serious help - where’s the self control and respect for wife (we are humans, not objects). Would he lash out against a man in the same manner - YEAH RIGHT! Remember hwo some brothers speak to us online, so imagine how they are in person. Surah al Baqarah tells us how to treat each other. The seerah gives insight into how the prophet (SAW) treated his wives.
Wallahi, I can’t believe that people are actually suggesting that AA Muslim women should marry kaffir men. You care so much about your AA Sisters that you’re leading (throwing) them straight into the hellfire.
Why are you in disbelief? The truth was finally spoken… aaah and if you think no one wants black women, try a divorced woman LOL …. don’t you just love our righteous Muslim men
The funny thing is I know many SE Asian and Arab men who actually prefer black women, BUT…. their culture is so strong they’d rather go with the status quo and live in a miserable marriage.
Wounded Soul
Yeah, I hate it when women are abused and they paint it as receiving “ajar through patience”….give me a break.
Those women need to get the help they deserve.
Am I the only one who thinks there are good AA brothers out there? What is the criteria some of you are using to discount AA bros? As I said in Musleema’s post, I don’t think they are any worse off than Arab, Indian or African brothers in terms of marriage. Yes, there are issues that brothers are facing in the AA community but there are issues ppl are facing in the immigrant communities as well.
I’m not going to marry a non-Muslim man. I need a man who has taqwa and knows that Allah (SWT) is Lord. I don’t think marrying a non-Muslim man is the solution. What about children? All of the Islamically-oriented things families do togther? NO MAN, I wouldn’t go near that one.
Why are we even talking about non-Muslim men? They are not even a consideration because it is IMPERMISSIBLE. If we were to follow that twisted logic, what would you suggest these sisters do when non-Muslim men start treating these sisters badly? Should they then become lesbians because only another woman would understand them and be able to relate to their hurt and pain?? Sound far-fetched? Well it does happen.
All this talk about kaafir men is garbage and needs to stop. There are plenty of men of all races, religions, ethnicities, etc. who have treated women badly and have played games with them. I work with a bunch of non-Muslims and their stories are far worse than ours. Their marriages may last a bit longer but does it really matter when both spouses are cheating on each other. A co-worker of mine is engaged to a guy but has 2 boyfriends on the side, one of which is a married man with 2 kids. Don’t think for a second that kaafir marriages are stronger than ours, they only stay married longer because their used to a certain lifestyle and getting a divorce would compromise that.
As women, we need to be held accountable for our mistakes instead of being mad at the world for our stupidity. I can’t even count the number of sisters that I know who repeatedly made the same mistake over and over again when looking for a spouse because they’re impatient or ignored their gut instinct and married a man they barely even knew or had doubts about. Some sisters are so desperate (and yes men can pick up on this) that they will marry the first brother who shows any interest in them and hence we get treated like crap.
BTW, Just the thought of going down on a man who doesn’t make istinja makes me feel like gagging! UGH!!!
Janessa,
DWL@ your last sentence. You made me spit water all over my desk. Whoy!!!!!!!!!!!
Jamerican Muslimah,
LOL. I thought we were on the same page when you said “NO MAN, I wouldn’t go near that one”.
(You know I had to look up what DWL stands for, that’s the first time I’ve seen that acronym)
Janessa,
We are on the same page.
I found the article offensive. If we followed the author’s logic, then we Black women would be poor choices. Then that sister would be a poor choice. But notice how she premised her identity. hmmmmmm as native american and guyanese. Talk about exceptionalism.
I agree with Jamerican who has pointed out the failed marrianges in other communities. I’ve seen several immigrant families divorced, some couples wait till their kids get older, but others just up and leave because they can’t stand it anymore. I also know of several cases of spousal abuse that is largely silent. Plus nobody has done statistics on divorce rates between African American and Desi or Arab men. So, besides her anecdotal evidence many of the claims are baseless. I get tired of the black man bashing and black woman bashing. That conversation is so stale.
I think there are good black men out there, but the competition is fierce. But if there are any good brothers that I know of, I try to recommend my sisters because I want to see them happy. Jamerican, I’m lookin out for you. I thought of you the other day when I had a conversation with a brotha. I’m gonna see where his head is at and get back atcha.
Margari,
Is there anything that you don’t take offense at??? SHEESH!!!
Janessa you shouldn’t be going down on any man, regardless of faith. How can a mouth that recites Quran lick coochie or suck d*ck?!
Any why do you need to do all of that to please him, what’s wrong with your stuff? NOt doing any kegals to keep it tight?!
DesiGyrl,
It is offensive, as I’ve illustrated black women are not the only ones inbad relationships…can I say hurray for us for having the balls to get out of them? No! No woman, muslim or nonMuslim deserves to be treated like crap by the man that claims he loves her (for the sake of Allah). Frankly, I’m sick of the black man black woman bashing…all communities have issues and many immigrant communities have issues far worse than the black communites… you guys just don’t air your dirty laundry, yet your women show it in the masjids via the sad eyes and confidential meetings. Your children show it by the way they treat mom - it’s not normal for a 4, 6, 9 year odl child to say nasty things to his mother OR hit her… where is he learning it from… Oh yeah that righteous Desi or Arab brother.
There are many white sisters who have been in multiple marriages with Desi and Arab men. There are many letters sent to my office about our so called pious arab brothers and how they use them women while they are in the states.
Sisters shouldn’t stoop so low as to write about their virginity being unopened cans of soda, do we hear brothers say they are giving us unlicked lollipops on our weddings nights.
We have rights, which comes along with responsibiliites. We do not have to become honorary whatever our husband is to please him - he picked us for a reason.
Everyone, Muslim men and women are to blame. As muslim men SOME do not properly fulfill their role as a wali. Ladies ask your wali, if he’d marry his sister or daughter to this brother, play close attention to his body language, especially facial expression as he answers.
As I’ve said before there should be mandatory pre-marital counseling.. ALTERNATIVELY marry but DO NOT CONSUMATE THE MARRIAGE, but spend the time together to see if this is truly what you want (we all know most of us are not praying istikarah these days). This is a very common custom amongst some groups
Cut the crap, marriage is a serious issue…Muslims just aren’t taking it serious, if so then we’d all be looking for the pious man or woman, instead we are looking for the sister with the big booty and brother who’s a doctor.
Wounded Soul,
Are you serious?!?! It’s not like I do it while he or I are reciting Qur’an. Maybe if more sisters went down on their man they would have happier marriages or would be able to keep their man. Just a thought…
P.S. There is nothing wrong with my stuff, I please him and he pleases me.
Desigyrl,
Was that even worthwhile typing? It clearly indicates that you still haven’t gotten over our last exchange. Write something thoughtful and meaningful. Otherwise, I’ll just ignore any stupid comments you type.
Janessa…nevermind you missed the point,,, We recite Quran with our tongues, some of us actually understand and apply what we are reciting in our day to day affairs, the rest of us just have some surahs memorized (thus the lack of affect on our hearts).
What do we say prior to intercourse?
Anyway, TMI - only your man knows OR CARES whether you are satisfying him. I’d just like to say, don’t kiss me if we ever meet. NO sisters don’t need to go down on a man to have a happier marriage, learn to WORK those hips and YOUR MIND… INTELLECTUALLY stimulate him. The sex could be good as a java chip frappucino, but if you can’t communicate with him, he’ll find some outside sister to work his mind. Sex is important, bu tnot the most important aspect of a marriage, at least this sister requires more than sex to be happy. Are we communicating with our men? How many of us can actually hold decent and engaging conversations with our men? VERY FEW… judging by the things we discuss amongst ourselves (our children and cooking). If I am sitting across from you bored with the 2 minute conversation I can imagine what your poor husband feels - TORTURE.
It’s like our looks and bodies - after children they some of us gain a few pounds, as we age some of us lose our beauty - but your minds remain (we should become wiser…)
Regarding instinja, some of us need to pratice it, I’ve been in too many homes and masjid bathroom where it’s beyond funky - coochie isn’t supposed to smell like a dead fish/rotten egg combo. Even when we are on our menses NO ONE else should be able to smell it!
LOL, this discussion is hilarious. All I can say is TMI TMI TMI. About the premarital counsel, I’m kind of surprised that it isn’t a requirement in order to get married within the muslim community. I just assumed it was. I would figure that if you’re actually using a wali to find your future spouse the counseling would be the logical (and fairly easy to accomplish) next step.
Marital couseling is a big plus…it helps to come to common understanding with each other. My husband and I did attend counseling with an imam and my father. We also had SO MANY chaperoned dates. My mother and his mother would sit at one table and we would be at the other.
Yet…there is no situation like living together. Two of my Muslimah friends got married within the same time frame as I did and we all can say it takes a lot of adjustment to go from no dating, no boyfriends to a husband!!! I was happy to heed the sentiments of many people who warned me that the first year is rough. I really think it takes time to iron out the communication wrinkles. So during our first year together we continued counseling. Luckily my husband is in the mental health/counseling field so he doesn’t hate on therapy.
I think the pre-marital stuff if great but I also think that continued support is essential for some. In this sense you are working togther as a team on your relationship rather than running to Sister so-and-so with all your business.
Well said Samira…this is where most of us fail, we forget we have become a team (one unit), and continue to operate in silos - we can’t do our thang. There has to be compromise and mutual respect.
Umm, how did this conversation degrade itself down and reduce itself to sexual innuendos and the discussing of each other’s sex lives or the lack thereof? Perfect case in point with what is wrong with our people. Take your argument and discourse to a higher level. There is no reason to lounge in the gutter just because you have nothing better to do.
LOL : )
Gotta love the ummah : )
muneera,
Why is the subject of sex degrading? Just curious…I actually think Muslims (esp. sisters) act to prudish when it comes to the subject of sex. Yes, there is a time, place, context and proper wording (?) necessary but I don’t see it as a “lower” discussion.
Margari,
Yes it was worthwhile for me. You pissed me off when you had the nerve to call me racist because I pointed out a few things that I had noticed in the AA Muslim community (and I don’t even want to get into that shyt again) but then you had the AUDICITY of accusing the sister who wrote the article of exceptionalism just because she described her background??? Give me a freakin’ break! Give the sister some credit. Just because someone doesn’t agree with your way of thinking doesn’t make them a racist nor does it mean that they think they are better than anyone else. We are entitled to our opinion and instead of shoving your shyt down my throat, just accept the fact that people have gone through different experiences in life and the outcome is that not everyone sees the glass as half-full.
Tariq talks a lot about the plight of the AA muslims in our community and it has been very helpful to a lot of people because before any changes can be made for the better, the problems have to be acknowledged. Yes, there are problems with other ethnicities in our community but Tariq’s blog focuses more on AAs because he is one and because AAs seem to be worst off in our community in regards to family support and especially stranger marriages. (Tariq correct me if I’m wrong). If Tariq had posts specifically about Desis or Arabs, I would have something to say about them too.
If you want to sing the praises of the Black Man on your blog, go right ahead. I’ll stop by and visit and I’ll even drop a comment or two. But if you wish to continue to keep your head buried in the sand, go right ahead, it doesn’t bother me one bit!!!
I want to say it one more time loud and clear for those who have any doubts:
I DON’T BELIEVE THAT ALL AA MUSLIM MEN ARE BAD
I DON’T BELIEVE THAT ONLY AA MUSLIM MARRIAGES HAVE PROBLEMS
This is the last I have to say on this. You guys can think whatever you want to about me, I could care less.
Peace Out
Desigyrl,
You sure are angry. But I think that you are more upset that I insulted your intelligence, rather than called you a racist. I do think an article claiming that Arab and Desi men are better marriage choices than Black men is offensive to the good Black men that are out there. I think the hard working brothers who are upstanding and trying to do right by their wives and children are tired of being assumed that they are scum. Claude Steele, a noted scholar on race in America, has done studies on how stereotypes negatively affect people’s performance, cause depression, and generally affect people’s self perception. I have been in many conversations with good men who are frustrated and tired.
As critical of the Black community and issues of gendered racism as I have been in my writing, I draw certain lines. People have a right to their opinion. But that doesn’t mean that their opinions are right or well informed. I’m not saying that you’re dumb you just are not a scholar of race nor do you don’t have a critical understanding of race. Nor does it seem like you are a careful reader. Reread my statements and be more perceptive and you will find that I never called you a racist.
“You know what is so wack about this statement, is that you have two cases where this has happened and you generalize about a significant portion of black people. Two cases does not make for empirical evidence that this is a tendency. You observe a few cases (even though you never asked the mothers why they covered their daughter’s hair or not) and now you think you know so much about AA Muslims and why their children cover. Now, if I used that logic, there’s a whole lot I can say about some Desi people that would be insulting to you.”
“The implications of your statement is pretty wack. I don’t think that you are aware of how you can perpetuate negative stereotypes. I also think that the very statement by which you claim there is SOME truth behind every stereotype is indicative of your uncritical understanding of race and ethnic identity. If you had stated, in more qualified language, that you have observed a few cases (cases in which you speculated that the mothers’ intentions for covering was because of hair grooming), I would have not not been so irritated. My job is to challenge unqualified statements and to push people to think further. You may talk about how flat your hair is, but hair is not as political or touchy of an issue in your community as it is in the Black community.”
“Many stereotypes are so broad in reach that you can find a case where this stereotype applies. To me, the acceptance of stereotypes is a sign of uncritical thought at minimum and lazy thought at most.”
I pointed out the ways stereotypes take hold and have negative consequences. Go re-read my comments and find a quote where I call you a racist. You yourself said that you believe there is truth in all stereotypes.
Now this pissed me off and showed to me that you don’t respect me as a person when you said,
“I bet if my alias was Shaniqua Alize’ Muhummad you probably would have agreed with me. ”
From that moment I developed an antipathy towards you. I feel like I deserve an apology. It was rude, condescending, and smacks of something a racist would actually say. You are defensive and take personal attacks, as opposed to engaging in a thoughtful conversation.
No, I’m not angry at all. I’m actually sitting here cracking up because I think you’re full of it. Case in point, at least two people have made comments that kaafir men would make better marriage partners for AA sisters and you found nothing wrong with those statements but find exception if one sister thinks that desis or arabs are better marriage partners than AAs. You want to talk about negative consequences of stereotyping? These women are being told to commit major sins which will lead them to the hellfire and you have NOTHING to say about that??? ALL Muslim men are being stereotyped here and again you want to pick on one sister because she said something negative about AA brothers. Clearly, that shows you are biased which leads me to believe that you aren’t sincere, hence, you are full of it. You claim you want to eradicate stereotypes but I guess that only holds true if it affects Black people.
No, I’m not a scholar and I may not be intelligent or a careful reader but I’m smart enough to realize what’s going on around me and when it comes to making decisions that could adversely affect me or my family I will do what I need to do regardless of what other people think about me.
I commend the sister for being brave enough to write that article and I will make sure to leave a positive comment thanking her for sharing her suggestions and experiences.
Smooches!
DesiGyrl -
Your attempt to conceal your contempt for AA people did not work. I hope that you can eliminate your caste mentality and become more universal in your thinking. Reformation of Islam is a must for muslims to become successful. Do not become holier than thou because AA have progressive ideas for the reformation of Isalm based upon their experience in America.
I said that AA women should indeed seek AA men of high moral character. Do you propose to tell me than only muslim men are of high moral character and not Christian and Jewish men.
Where does your antipathy toward AA originate?
Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?
Do you think that slavery although not condemned in the Book is acceptable?
Do you think men of lower caste can marry women of upper caste?
Do you think women of lower caste can marry men of upper caste?
Do you think a Punjabi woman can marry a non-Punjabi man?
Please disprove my theory regarding your attitude about AA.
Tell us your views so that we may get to know you better.
Salam
Wow! Sometimes I wonder why we feel so free on these blogs to be so nasty to each other. Is it just because we can’t be seen by the other person?
Anyway, thanks Wounded Soul for the comment. Not to be cheesy but getting married has been one of the best experiences in my life. I could go on and on but I don’t want to make you all sick!
I like many other people was not feeling the post. I left a comment but to be honest I find it to be a waste of time. I personally have no idea of what she was trying to convey except some controversy about race by dragging out the Willie Horton of Muslim blogs- the bad AA Muslim brother.
Look I’m no idiot. I know that there are issues in every community. But what strikes me as interesting is the fact that no one connects these problems to issues of sexism and disrespect of women.
After reading the comments by the brothers and sisters that listed the problems within all of these communities AA, Arab, Desi, etc. I am surprised that no one said “Brothers (and sisters) let’s put in some work to stop this crap.” I think running away to another country or another ethnicity is a joke. I am not against cross-cultural marriages. I am just interested in hearing ways to heal each other rather than promote estrangement and scapegoating, insha’Allah.
Desigyrl,
You continue with your personal attacks. Those low blows indicate your failed logic and wounded ego. Because your arguments fell short you want to attack my character. You can’t judge my sincerity, as I pointed out before some well meaning people promote negative stereotypes. As for my intentions or sincerity, only Allah can judge my intentions.
I didn’t adress the marrying non-Muslim men issue in this forum. People have already pointed out the impermissibility of that. Nor did I address the debates about fellatio or cunningulus. That issue is subject to debate. I have lots of thoughts on various issues, but I pick my battles. I have too much to do in the day, but I am here wasting time in petty spats. I have addressed the issue about Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men in my own blog. For my stance on the issue, I was subject to verbal abuse and intimidation.
Maybe you are a nice person in real life, but you have displayed some mean spiritedness when your ideas are challenged. It seems like you have a lot invested in the generalizations you make. I openly admit that I have always been an intellectual snob. I think generalizations and stereotypes is all about lazy thinking and faulty logic. I have high expectations for any discourse. Often when I challenged you, you didn’t address my points but became irrational and made personal jabs. Like the “Shaniqua Alize Muhammad” comment. That comment was insulting because Alize is an alcoholic drink. It had racial overtones and to me is evidence of an underlying bigotry.
The sister knew she would be strong criticism by making some serious generalizations about Black men. I understand why you would support supporting another muddled thinker because you believe in the truth behind stereotypes. I myself, find stereotypes detrimental and work hard everyday against racism and essentializations about Islam. Like I said in my earlier, those generalizations “otherizes” people and marginalizes them. Stereotypes over simplify and keep us from getting at the root of the problems. If we maintain stereotypes about race, gender, or religion, we can never truly build bridges. The key is not to generalize others, but to understand the complexities and diversities of human experience.
ASA
Wounded Soul:
Please do not allow ethnic immigrant Muslims and their African American mouth pieces to exert such influence, power, and control over your inteprtation and implementation of Islam. Freedom of conscience and a responsible search for truth and meaning are not valued in many of the Muslim communities in the U.S.
You are an adult, and are entitled to the privileges of adulthood as everyone else. You do not half to surrender personal power to an Imam, Sheik, or the Muslim community. This is your life, and marriage is your decision. No one has the moral or legal authority to dictate to you, who you can, or can’t marry. Marriage is a personal/family decision. It is not the Imam’s decision or the Muslim community’s decision. You can get married with out both. They are not necessary.
Do not allow them to “fool” you. Many ethnic immigrant Muslims are married to non-Muslim men, especially those who are professionally educated.
Visit the ADAMS center and you will find dozens there. I have a few friends who are born Muslims and had no problem marrying a non-Muslim. They don’t place the acceptance of the Muslim community over their personal lives. They go on living.
I encourage you to check out http://www.beliefnet.com. There is a scholar there by the screen name of “Miraj” who could give you detailed information on this subject. Once you see the “daleel” for your self, you will begin to see, the game that is being ran on many African American or American Muslims.
Many Imams are playing with fire acting as marriage guardians. In my area, a few of them, are being sued. Of course they are never going to announce it to the public.
If you put your self in a situation of authority you better have it together. Being reckless, sloppy, and distateful becuase it’s an AA sister will land you in a court room. Marriage fraud is a big problem for AA sisters who are told to bear it by practicing sabar. Bull crap. Some times forcing people to break bank will stop the insanity.
Even AA sisters married to AA brothers who are running scams on them do not realize their legal rights. So many are eligible for annulments and other legally binding rights within the law, but are manipulated out of doing so by the Imams.
If you feel you have been defrauded by your husband or Imam. GET AN ATTORNEY. Do not depedend on the Muslim community to GRANT YOU JUSTICE. That’s why we have a court of law. You are worthy, and you are deserving of it. Don’t let anybody convince you otherwise.
Good luck.
ASA
Samira, it’s because very few of us understand the religion we claim to follow and love. We lack taqwa, which reflects in our overall state as Muslims. Whe forget those angels are still recording as we are showing the world what our hearts conceal. Do we think Allah will not bring us to account for the words we type (that reflect the sordid condition of souls and hearts). Every wonder why many of our hafiz have poor characters? They DO NOT understand what they have committed to memory. If we don’t understand it, we cannot apply the guidance to our lives. The most obvious is the issue of hijab, we will shoot a sister if a microscopic strand of hair is showing, yet if all strands are in and her pants are tight or cleavage showing - mashaAllah at least she is wearing hijab - NOT! It is supposed to cover our bosoms and conceal our shapes.
It’s no secret many Desis and many other people of color, hate blacks, which I find oddly amusing as many I often mistake for black, even if they don’t have dark skin. On the flip side if they were back home or in Arab countries they’d be treated worse than dried up feces in a sewer. My brother used to be married to a desi girl, turns out the baby wasn’t his (she was a slut), being that we were raised by an AWESOME black man, my brother has custody of that child and is raising him as his own. Can I say all Indo/Pak women are this way? Of course not, but I see right through the bull.
Do we understand the disease of Asabiyyah?
Now I can continue to laugh, as Muslims we cry when we are stereotyped, YET believe the stereotypes when it comes to black America….
ASA
Wounded Soul:
I applaud your courage for sharing your personal story, even, thought it is being dismissed.
Would you ever be interested in participating in a study that examines family patterns of American Muslim in relation to the Islamic teachings about women in Islam?
Here goes another unpopular opinion:
Encouraging AA women to use their looks and reproductive organs as a way of survival via marriage is not an American tradition it’s a third world tradition that our society gave up when the Civil rights/Women Lib movements took over. Any AA woman who chooses to follow the ethnic immigrant Muslim brand of Islam is moving backwards not forward. You are doing more harm than good. If you lack education and skills, you are setting up yourself up for a tremendous struggle with poverty.
Historically black women have always worked and were at the very least semi-skilled. Most are not groomed to be confined to some cozy cottage. Be careful with your life, and be careful with your children. The very people you are following including their AA mouth pieces don’t care about you or your children.
Remember, you are an adult, and are perfectly capable of making your own decisions. Don’t allow people to manipulate you with their twisted version of Islam.
Iron Fist , I don’t need the imam or an attorney, my nonMuslim father, uncles, cousins, and brothers took EXCELLENT care of that brother and wali that made the mistake of putting his hands on me.
Yes, I was naive when I first took shahada and assumed some groups as learned and placed them in a mentorship role. I’m also grateful I come from a closely knit family because I almost fell into the trap of severing ties (which was stupid as the Quran speaks out against this very act)…I shun to think where I’d be if I’d completely cut mom, dad, and the sibligs off - yeah a bad marriage, walking around in niqaab like before to hid the bruises because I didn’t know in Arab culture women aren’t allowed to exercise the rights given to us by Allah… The same rights we love to shout to the media. OR in prison for mutliple murders (the sisters who told me to be patient and it’s my fault for being a bad wife, the wali, imam, and the abuser).
My new wali, Omar, is great, he knows my family. I actually met him from one of my uncles in Manassas, VA, so I am comfortable with him because he’s like family. Is there a criteria for masjid appointed walis?
I had an excellent marriage as a nonMuslim, many days I regret ending the marriage after my conversion as I’ve never met a man who is anywhere on his level. We had tough times, but he didn’t abandon his family, we stuck through it, as a result we grew closer. How many Muslimahs can honestly say this? Very few, as we are victims of the “Enty Talek,” movement because we voice our opinons and stand our ground… truth be told it’s no lose. When will we as Muslim realize we are being abusive by men who always threaten divorce <–control issue (which is why many old nasty men want little girls).
Yes, I will marry a nonMuslim, if my ex didn’t remarry I would have asked him to take me back after dealing with the nightmare marriage and Muslims in name and garb. I don’t have many Muslim friends, because I’m not down with faking righteous - what you see is what you get. There are many nonMuslims I consider Muslims because of their CHARACTER and beautiful nature (positive energy flows from them).
One of my Arab buddies told me Islam is the best in the US (he wasn’t able to practice fully when back home in Kuwait and Egypt). He also told me, to stop looking for the Islamic Utopia I read about in the Quran and Seerah as most Muslims have no clue what Islam is.
Who’s loving and hating for the sake of Allah? NONE OF US… WE hate groups of people, not the actions. We judge. We terrorize. WE lie. WE steal. We cheat. WE gossip. Hasad controls us.
I am Muslim because I love what the Quran teaches, not because of the people. I could care less and as I’ve stated many times before I’ve found more Muslims (according my understanding of the Quran) amongst those who claim to be atheist than I have in the masjid and online. Islam forums and blogs have more drama than a WWE match.
Margari - I think your posts were right on. I think that desichick made some remarks that were offensive, got called on them, and got emotional. I really respect the way you basically tried to educate her and elucidate your point, rather than insult. Perhaps this approach will lead to better communication.
ifon rist - I think it’s good that people seem to ignore you.
Just for the record, I’m AA, my wife is AA, both college educated, been married for 7 years, live in an Arab community, and couldn’t be happier, Alhamdulillah! I must state that I don’t feel as though I have to adopt someone elses culture in order to be “more” Muslim, nor have I been pressured to do so.
Wounded Soul,
I could almost write most of the stuff you have said. I am sorry that things have turned out for you like this. I think the majority of Muslims, sad to say, are crap. Like Shaw said “Islam is the best religion, Muslims are the worst followers”. It is true.
I am a Muslim still DESPITE other Muslims, not because of them. You have had to deal with the Arab culture like I have. There are many things I like about Arab culture, but an equal amount of stuff about it I despise.
Good luck, as always.
This comment is in reference to an article posted on IslamiCity, Islam Without Muslims; Muslims Without Islam
“… It is a common sight that mankind see no need to repent to beome fit for paradise. They see no need to wash away stinks and feel safe as they cover themselves in socially approved attires. What a deception of self? I think that Islam without Muslim prevails as Islam is practical side of Muslim and we are on the stage to act our part.”
Abu Sinan,
I am not sorry, just disappointed that we (Muslims in general) still play the “we are not like that” game. Once we acknowledge the problems exist, we can begin to correct them.
I’ve learned from my mistakes and ordeals (not playing a victim role, i saw the red flags but went with the flow out of ignorance), now I deal with a people on an individual level, don’t assume because X exists they are blah blah. It hurts that most Muslims, regardless of race, ethnicity, born or convert are bad apples (poor manners, nasty attitidutes, arrogant). This really makes me crazy because I don’t understand how we claim to love Islam, yet our behavior is worse than those who are NOT guided by Islam.
What I will not tolerate is bashing of black folks. While there is some truth to every stereotype, the majority of us do not fit the steretype. I know several white muslimahs who are/were in bad marriages to immigrant Muslim men. I know several miserable arab/desi/black women married to arab/desi/black men as well as those married to their own kind who are happy. Marriage is hard, I do not advocate running from problems, yet I will never tell anyone to stay in any abusive marriage especially in America where the stigma of being divorced isn’t as bad. Our beloved prophet married widows and divorced women, he only married one virgin.
As i’ve said many times before there are many men who would love to marry a black woman, I don’t look like Beyoné but for some reason I attract all types, but as I’ve told them if their family has an issue with the black skin, don’t ask my friends. No one wants to be in a marriage when the inlaws from hell. These so called righteous families that dont like black skin may rise on the day of Judgemen with black faces…aah
How many Muslims really help the poor?
Why are we calling the masjid asking for the tax ID number in order to claim a tax break - this is sick, IMHO, we donate to the masjid for the sake of Allah not for the tax man.
assalamu alikeum
People need to stop this crap generalisations that all muslims are bad, don’t practise etc… There’s over 1.3 billion muslims worldwide and growing. Who are you to taint all those people on the actions of some fucked up ones.
I agree with sis margari when she says: ‘generalizations and stereotypes is all about lazy thinking and faulty logic.’
You won’t find any group of human beings who don’t have their rotten eggs. There are alot of good brothers out there. Just because you havent met any or happen to be asscoiated with shit heads don’t mean they don’t exist. I know plenty of decent brothers who are diamonds (including some in my own family) and speaking of muslim (and non muslim too) AA men, i honestly don’t know why they got such a bad rap because honestly all the ones I have met (in U.K) were really nice guys- Im not saying that like anyone should be surprised, of course there are loads of nice AA muslim brothers lol, why shouldnt there be! The ones who do happen to do bad stuff arent any more worse than the arab, desi, white, far east men who treat women like dogs too- for the confused washed up folk who think that the sun shines of all non black men asses, then they can think again.
As for marrying a non muslim guy, sorry but theres no evidence of that being allowed. I don’t need to go to an imam or listen to any other muslim for that, its in the book of allah. Just because some washed up arab or desi chick marries a kaffir (and lets be honest these women are non practicing and don’t give two hoots about islam in any shape, way or form) doesnt mean we have to follow suit. If a man is more important to them than the will of allah, then thats cool for them and they can take it up with allah when they meet him. I’d rather a sister (of any background) joined as a co-wife with me (assuming i had a husband lol) than go down that route. Thats not to say they’re aint decent , respectful non muslim men, becos there are are but nothing is more important that taqwa and belief of allah. If it means saying single, waiting ages for the right brother or being a 2nd wife (although not a route i wish to go down) then those would be a better option - that doesnt mean taking any waste muslim bro though.
Bro Carlito: Its cool, you don’t have to explain yourself brother, who you married to or that your a nice husband. No-one here at least should be assuming the worst or any less of you just becos of your background.
[It hurts that most Muslims, regardless of race, ethnicity, born or convert are bad apples (poor manners, nasty attitidutes, arrogant).]
Its this attitude that i’ve been talking about. Seriously sis, have you met every muslim- all 1.3 billion of them, being globetrotting to every muslim nation, spending time with every muslim folk and family?
Your doing exactly what you don’t want others to do to you and thats to stereotype! The muslim ummah extends outside of your state/country sis.
[I think the majority of Muslims, sad to say, are crap.]
Same goes for you bro Abu Sinan. Just cos the people in your community are screwed (to put it mildly) doesnt mean all or most muslims are.
You guys need to get off your high horses and stop thinking that your in some elite minority of good muslims and that the rest of the muslims worldwide are the bottom crap of your shoe!
Muslim gal, you just proved my point.
Yes the majority of us are bad apples. What are we doing in pakistan about the honor killings?!
What are we doing about the lack of rights given to our sisters across the middle east?
What are we doing about the starving children in Africa? Washington, DC? New York City?
WE ARE ROTTEN APPLES…
Why is it my brother from Bangledesh cannot get married because he wants to marry a black woman yet his mother wants him to marry a white person? This is not his preference, so he has decided not to marry - AGAINST ISLAM.
How many times do I have to hear Kafir this kaffir that… DO we know understand the meaning of this term?
Why is it hard for my brothers in India to marry because they have to pay a dowry to the families of the men their mothers and sisters marry?
Why aren’t we fighting against FGM? in Africa and the Middle East?
Why is it okay to stereotype against blacks, yet AMerica is wrong when it come sot Muslims!
Why are sisters breaking the line of salat because they are scared of my black skin, though many are darker than I?
Why are sisters have to show Virginity certificates (How degrading and humilating)
WE are NOT speaking out against the ills committed by those in the name of Islam so YES it makes US bad apples.
Just observe how we treat nonMuslims it’s DISGUSTING.
AGain, you proved the point I was making. NO one likes when the Mirror is held to their face, so it easy to point out the ills in the black community.
Why do sisters stay in bad marriages? BECAUSE of the stigma associated it with although our prophet saw married widows and divorced women!
Muslim Gal.. .Give me a break. The muslim ummah is suffering for a reason! It’s not because of Islamophobia, it’s US!
And stop calling yourself a gal… that term is degrading… but then again we muslim women have accepted lowly terms (candy, jewlery, unopened cans of soda, meat)
Sick sick sick world
Muslim Gal,
I have been in, or a part of Muslim communities in Europe, North America and the Middle East. I am married to a Saudi. I am well aware of the state of the Muslim community.
If you look at the deen itself, in both The Qur’an and Hadith, it is clear that Allah and his Prophet have said basically the same thing we are saying. The Prophet himself said that there will come a day when holding onto your deen will be like holding onto lit charcoal. http://www.islam1.org/khutub/Stay_Firm_on_Deen.htm
“According to the Qur’an, on the Last Day the Prophet (saas) will say that his own people will have abandoned the Qur’an: “My Lord, my people treat this Qur’an as something to be ignored…” (Surat al-Furqan: 30) ”
http://www.signsofthelastday.com/hadiths_06.html
“There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur’an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it.
(Agreed upon)
A comparison is made in Surah Jumuah, verse 5: “The metaphor of those who were charged with the Torah but then have not upheld it, is that of a donkey carrying books…” There is no doubt that this verse applies as a warning to Muslims, reminding them that they must be careful not to fall into the same grave error. The Qur’an was sent down as a book of guidance for people to observe.”
There will come a time upon the Ummat when people will recite the Qur’an, but it will not go further than their throats, (into their hearts).
(Bukhari)
http://www.signsofthelastday.com/hadiths_06.html
Was the Prophet on a “high horse” when he said that? One of the signs of the Last Day and the coming judgement will be the absolute poor quality of the Muslim community. Are you unaware of these things? There are loads of Hadith about this very subject.
In saying what we have, we are simply echoing The Qur’an and the Prophet. I suggest you take a close look at your deen. Or do you suggest the Prophet was in error when he said these things?
I posted this, but it said it is awaiting moderation. I will remove the links so it goes through. Maybe Tariq can allow the previous post through with the links later.
This is what I posted:
Muslim Gal,
I have been in, or a part of Muslim communities in Europe, North America and the Middle East. I am married to a Saudi. I am well aware of the state of the Muslim community.
If you look at the deen itself, in both The Qur’an and Hadith, it is clear that Allah and his Prophet have said basically the same thing we are saying. The Prophet himself said that there will come a day when holding onto your deen will be like holding onto lit charcoal.
“According to the Qur’an, on the Last Day the Prophet (saas) will say that his own people will have abandoned the Qur’an: “My Lord, my people treat this Qur’an as something to be ignored…” (Surat al-Furqan: 30) ”
“There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur’an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it.
(Agreed upon)
A comparison is made in Surah Jumuah, verse 5: “The metaphor of those who were charged with the Torah but then have not upheld it, is that of a donkey carrying books…” There is no doubt that this verse applies as a warning to Muslims, reminding them that they must be careful not to fall into the same grave error. The Qur’an was sent down as a book of guidance for people to observe.”
There will come a time upon the Ummat when people will recite the Qur’an, but it will not go further than their throats, (into their hearts).
(Bukhari)
Was the Prophet on a “high horse” when he said that? One of the signs of the Last Day and the coming judgement will be the absolute poor quality of the Muslim community. Are you unaware of these things? There are loads of Hadith about this very subject.
In saying what we have, we are simply echoing The Qur’an and the Prophet.
I suggest you take a close look at your deen. Or do you suggest the Prophet was in error when he said these things?
On another note, if we weren’t bad apples stranger marriages wouldn’t be an issue. We’d be marrying to please Allah. Our husbands would fear Allah regarding their treatment of us. Sisters would fear Allah regarding their husband and children.
I’m so sick to my stomach (lol - now I sound like my husband) over this foolishness. How many times have I sat in the home of my so called Muslim sisters, yet if you heard some of the things their children say you’d puke. Children are known for their honesty and they represent us.
Then again Muslim Gal… such beautiful words out of your mouth , “CRAP,” “Washed up desi/arab chick” WOW… not from this GOOD APPLE… guess you’ve been around us bad apples too long. I’d never refer to another woman as washed up or any other offensive name. TSK TSK TSK
Thanks for the laugh, you owe me a new scarf because I spilled some coffee on this one laughing at the contradictions (you say imply you are good, yet your words tell otherwise) *SNICKER*
Assalamu alikeum
WS: Firstly i don’t know why you find the word ‘gal’ degrading, its just short for ‘girl’ (i didnt realise that being a girl was degrading lol) and thats kinda of how I and many other british people i know pronounace the word girl with our accent in London. I don’t know what it means or what connotations it has in america and by the sound of your reaction its not nice but its the old case of same word, different meaning. Theres many words like that which have a cross linguistical meanings in different nations. Rather than assume that im degrading myself, why don’t you just ask? Besides I would never call myself or accept anyone calling me a degrading name whether it was about my race, ethnicity, gender, religion etc… and personally despise all objectification and usage of metaphors between food, clothes, jewrelly towards sisters and women.
Secondly theres alot of WE in your post to me. Speak for yourself sister. I don’t treat people badly on basis of gender, race etc.. and you don’t need to tell me about racism/sterotypes towards black people from muslims and non muslims because I AM BLACK too. I’ve had my fair share from my muslim bros and sis’s and non muslims too- some verbal and other which has manifested in phyiscal action. You don’t need to tell me about speaking up about ills of muslims, because i am not oblivious to them and neither say silent on such matters or with other social, ethical and moral issues. My conciseness would not allow me to do so. Just because im not ranting on blogs 24/7 doesnt mean that im mute and if you knew me personally you’d know that. But you don’t so best to save assumptions on moi.
My only gripe is when posters regularly make this constant assertion that nearly all muslims (usually not including themselves) are wasted, headed for hell, not worthy of islam as one brother put it. I don’t deny that situations in the ummah are bad. That we have corrupt governance in the ummah and barbaric customs and ideas which are abhorrent to our deen still exist in communities around the world. We will never be perfect and things will always arise and people will always have to fight it. The generations before us had problems and the ones after will do so too. But despite this darkness that we muslims have found ourselves in, there is some light. Sometimes when your down and angry at everything that going on and sicknend by the state of muslims, i find that theres always someone who revives my faith in my fellow muslims again. An action or a word, something, it makes me glad that im part of this ummah and we have hope with people like them.
There are millions of good muslims, despite all the evil things that go and that some people commit, they exist. I refuse to tarnish everyone with the same brush and bad mouth all muslims. You don’t have to travel outside of your own circle, city and country to know that but it can help to broaden your horizons and i’ve met many lovely, honest and truly god fearing Muslims home and abroad. In the same way that i am tired, you are tired and proabably many of our fellow people of african anscestry are tired of the racist, vile biogeted stereotypes that are regurgitated time and time again about our communities (that we’re all savages, inheriting violent, barbaric, unintelligent, lazy etc… you know the rest), i am tired of muslims and non muslims doing the same about muslims. Because its rubbish.
As for the word kaffir, yes i know what it means (in arabic although im well aware of the way its used in south africa as a slur towards black people, which is not how its used in the Quran or arabic language- anyone who does use it in such a way is a racist prick). I genreally use it interchangeably with non muslim so i use both but if you wish for me to give you an proper and accurate definition then im more than happy too. I make no apologies for using it. Whilst i don’t agree with people using it like a degoratory way- which i havent, i will not stop using it. There are many words these days which as muslims we’re being told we shouldnt say like jihad for example (just mentioning the word, regardless of what context, if any, will assure you get a visit from police minimum). These words are in the Quran, should we throw it out too? I don’t think so. As long as someones not saying it like: ‘you dirty kaffir etc..’ and trying to insult someone with it in such manner, then i’ve got no qualms with it.
Abu sinan, Dont you put words in my mouth regarding the prophet. I have never said anything against him and suggesting i have or find fault with his words are highly offensive and deeply insulting. I am aware of the hadiths you mentioned and many ayats in the quran saying similar things. However being married to a saudi does not give you an insight to millions of muslim lives or cultures, neither does a few week vacation to dubai.
WS: I have never said i am a good apple or a great person or that your are a bad person or a rotten apple etc.. I simply took issue with your mass generalisations. I’m not the one condemning all muslims.
Also abu sinan, don’t compare yourself with the prophet. The prophet peace be upon him didnt degrade all muslims the way you do and have and certainly didnt habour the ill, rather racist stereotypes towards people of african descent like you have displayed frequently in other blogs (having black friends or fancying black women doesn’t make you free of that either.)
The level of hypocrisy and double-standards on this thread is unbelievable. SMH.
Ron,
Here are my responses to your ridiculous questions.
“Your attempt to conceal your contempt for AA people did not work. I hope that you can eliminate your caste mentality and become more universal in your thinking. Reformation of Islam is a must for muslims to become successful. Do not become holier than thou because AA have progressive ideas for the reformation of Isalm based upon their experience in America.”
I have contempt for AA people?!?!? Please tell me where that came from? Is it because I’m Desi that you automatically assumed that? The rest of your statement is a bunch of BS so I won’t even bother to respond to it.
“I said that AA women should indeed seek AA men of high moral character. Do you propose to tell me than only muslim men are of high moral character and not Christian and Jewish men.”
As was mentioned before it is not permissible so there’s no point in discussing that any further. However, are you saying that high moral characters can’t be found in Muslim men therefore sisters need to reach out to Christians and Jews? How is that any different than saying that an AA sisters should reach out an Arab or Desi? Again, double-standard, hypocritical BS.
“Where does your antipathy toward AA originate?”
I have no antipathy towards AAs. If this was a blog about Desis or Arabs, I would talk about the problems in those communities as well. I have no qualms about telling it how it is unlike some sensitive azz folks who choose to live in fairy tale lands.
“Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?”
Give me a break!
“Do you think that slavery although not condemned in the Book is acceptable?”
Kiss my Ass!
“Do you think men of lower caste can marry women of upper caste?”
Nobody in the US follows that crap. LOL
“Do you think women of lower caste can marry men of upper caste?”
Same answer as above.
Do you think a Punjabi woman can marry a non-Punjabi man?
SMH. As long as he is Muslim, YES!!!
“Please disprove my theory regarding your attitude about AA”
I have no problems with AA people. I’m not even against marrying an AA brother but honestly speaking that’s not my first or second preference. Nor would I marry someone from back home because I know that many men do it so that they can live in the states. Is that a stereotypical way of thinking? NOPE! I’m not naïve, I know about the shyt that goes on and I’m not taking any chances.
“Tell us your views so that we may get to know you better”
All of you have me misunderstood because of your own negative stereotypes about Desis. Believe what you will, I have no further comment.
Wounded Soul,
Let me ask you if I may. If you had a forum such as this talking about the problems of complete stranger marriages and other problems in our community, do you think you would have ended up in the horrible marriage that you described above??? This is the reason why we need to openly and honestly discuss the problems in our communities so that we can make fix them and be able to make better decisions in the future.
BTW, Margari I do apologize for the “Shaniqua Alize” comment but I stand firm on everything else I’ve said.
This is officially the last word I have to say on all of this.
Peace.
Let me rephrase that 1st sentence better :
abu sinan, don’t compare yourself with the prophet. The prophet peace be upon him has never degraded all muslims or any muslims PERIOD. YOU however do.
Muslim Gal,
I never compared myself to the Prophet, I pointed out to you that the comments you were condemning are the same things said by God and His Prophet
It is clear you have an issue with the words of the Prophet and The Qur’an. What dont you understand about the word of God and His Prophet? God and Mohammed made it very clear that the Muslim community at the end of times was going to be awful.
Is there any doubt about it when He says ““My Lord, my people treat this Qur’an as something to be ignored…” (Surat al-Furqan: 30) ”
God is clearly saying that at some point Muslims will ignore The Qur’an. He didnt say “some people” He said “My people”. It is clear.
Mohammed said “There will