A Good Question
Posted on August 30, 2007 by Tariq Nelson
Dinesh D’souza asks:
Israel doesn’t have separation of church and state: it is a Jewish country that openly worries about protecting its Jewish identity. Britain has an established Anglican church, and virtually all European countries provide state subsidies to religious institutions, including religious schools. Why can’t Turkey, a Muslim country, stand up for Muslim interests and be governed by the Muslim values of its Muslim people? [Full Article]
You can’t ask questions like that
Filed under: Practical Solutions
This review might be useful, Insha’Allah:
Islam and Colonialism: Intellectual Responses of Muslims of Northern Nigeria to British Colonial Rule• BY MUHAMMAD S. UMAR.
Journal of Islamic Studies 2007 18: 439-441
Keep in mind that, not only Muslims in Nigeria want to live under Sharia law , but also the Christians want to practice fully their religion.
The problem makers are those outsiders.
Salaam
The article poses some valid questions, but such articles are published only to provide some ‘varity’. The newspapers themselves are heavily biased. That carries a lot of weight.
Ironically in the case of Turkey, AKP is pro-democracy, pro-west and pro-liberal values of more freedom of thought and expression. Seculars are very suspicious of US. The US media is very suspicious of AKP, and loves the secularists.
Reading the present hatred and fear of Islamic governance in the remarks of some Turks and Iranians seems to me more instructive than any book about old times.
@ Sandra
What exactly do you mean by “Islamic governance”
The AKP is not like the Taliban or the thugs in Iran
I think you know very well what I mean. The AKP may do well, time will tell. In the meantime Turkey has blocked wordpress last I heard.
Sandra, the courts are SECULAR.
The AKP had 5 years to do that, but they didn’t. What did they do? They enacted reforms to help Turkey prosper and garnered the support of Turkey’s religious minorities under their belt.
I’m more afraid of the Christian Right headed by the likes of Pat Robertson controlling this country than AKP controlling Turkey.
You mean, they might declare the US “Christian” and ban the Koran, construction of mosques, etc. as Saudi Arabia bans Bibles and churches? They might hand out death threats to those who abandon Christianity?
Has wordpress been unblocked in Turkey? Any more bloggers been shot, beaten up, and/or arrested elsewhere in the glorious ME?
Isn’t that what your precious Lord’s Resistance Army been doing in Uganda? After all, they have no problem enlisting children as foot soldiers in their quest to install a government based on the Ten Commandments.
And yes, that’s exactly what I’m afraid of.
BTW, do you support shooting Michael Moore? Because I can bring up a bunch of far-right loonies who do support shooting Michael Moore in the head.
The US is not Uganda. Am tickled at your idea of the powers and intentions of the religious right.
Kony, leader of the LR’s army reminds me of Mo. His followers call him prophet, they seek to religiously dominate everyone, committing atrocities the while. In the 7th century, and in a less isolated place than Uganda - say up near the Med., Kony might have had great success.
I think Moore is an interesting commentator. Digging his own grave with a fork, no need to shoot him.
Perhaps Turkey can commit another Amermian genocide
They cleared out Greeks in Istanbul Sept. 6-7, 1955. Check out byzantinos.com
Elric66, just like what the Serbs did to Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo a decade ago?
And Sandra, did you forget what the Greeks did to their own during the junta? Funny how you conveniently leave that out.
Back to the kitchen, bitch.
Another thing, didn’t the Greeks cleanse out the Jews during WW2 in Rhodes? Ironic it was a Turkish diplomat who risked in own life to save the Jews from the pro-Nazi Greeks at the time. Ironic how you didn’t bother to bring that up Elric66, worthless maggot you are.
Not to mention how Sandra is too ignorant or too stupid (must be the redneck inbred nature in her) to know about Georgios Papadopoulos (who was an ex-Nazi supported by the U.S.) and his brutality in the late 60’s and early 70’s.
Oh well, bitches like her are too afraid to say it out loud in public, relying on the Internet to express their bigotry.
You mean the same Balkans the Caliphate invaded centuries ago?
Islam is nothing but bigotry. Ironic you would mention bigotry.
Elric66, did you conveniently forget how your Christian brothers invaded and plundered the New World, forcefully converting the natives of the Americas into Christianity otherwise they would suffer death? Whatever happened to the pre-Christian pagan faiths that Europeans once subscribed to? Whatever happened to the Aborigines in Australia before being pillaged by Anglo Christians?
Did you forget how your Byzantine brethen ruthlessly persecuted the Copts in Egypt?
Did you forget how your precious Christian evangelical right want to make Iraq into a 100% Christian nation?
Keep a leash on your own animals before commenting on others, miserable prick.
BTW, shouldn’t you go execute people who work on the Sabbath, according to the Bible?
Did I strike a nerve Danial? Are you getting Sudden Jiahd Syndrome now?
I guess I would be miserable too if I was a Muslim. Having a war mongering pedophile as a prophet must be taxing.
Speaking of the Copts.
Egyptian Court in Controversial Ruling: Christians Who Convert to Islam Cannot Convert Back
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/017684.php
And if Christians did force non Christians to convert, ts wrong. Having said that, it goes against the teachings of Jesus where as with Islam, Mo taught it and its in the Qur’an. You wont find anything like Dhimmi laws in the New Testament.
STRIKE CABBIES: GPS TARGETS MUSLIMS
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09042007/news/regionalnews/taxi_fear_hike.htm
You cant make this stuff up.
Elric66, if you are so tough, why haven’t you enlisted to kill every other Muslim tough guy? Shouldn’t you go attend a lynching party in the South? That’s all you white trash hobos are good at anyways.
Typical Islamophobic faggot.
And here’s a slew of verses from your Bible:
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
So peaceful Christianity is, right?
As for being miserable, hah I’m not the one trolling on numerous Islamic sites being a major nuisance.
Oh well, that’s what you get for being a failed abortion. Too bad, too sad.
Also Sandra, should I also bring up what happened to Emmitt Till during that time period in the 50’s? You must be proud of such brutality.
Sure is. How amny Christians you see actually doing that and Christianity follows the New Testamant. Sorry Christians today dont act like Muslims today. Sorry to disappoint you.
Lord’s Resistance Army based out of Uganda utilizes children as foot soldiers to install Biblical Law in the country.
A group called Christian Exodus want to break South Carolina from the Union and create a nation also governed under the Ten Commandments.
Sorry to disappoint you, but there are Christians who act as much as radical Muslims, worthless vermin.
Boy you really have to dig, dont you? Lets see, Hamas which was ELECTED by the Palis. You have Iran, Saudi which funds Madrasses around the world who also ban all religions but Islam. Yeah those groups you mentioned are on par.
A Muhammadan whiner above claims:
“…What Serbs did to Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo a decade ago..?
What exactly did they do? The soldiers of Allah got rid of the Serbs in Kosovo and now want to install a sharia-based Islamic republic. Your Muhammadan brethren are the genocidal swine bro, but people got your number. The tide is turning!
What are “Muslim Values” ? is that not Sharia law where women are not equal to men in courts and non Muslims have even lower status” If Turkey keeps going deeper into Islam they will never prosper and never be admitted in the EU, perhaps they should look towards Iran and the land of Saud where they stone people to death, and chop their heads off.
Wow…
It seems that the acolytes of Robert Spencer are out in force! Man, I didn’t even realize that you yokels knew how to read. Well goooood-golly-miss-molly! At least you guys had the courage to put the Budweiser down just long enough to articulate your B.S. into something that eveb mildly resembles a thought. Good fer u !!!
Hey with original names like “Terminator” and “Zena” … you just managed to confuse the heck out of us. I don’t know if I’m talking to Arnold Schwarzenegger or a somewhat obese Lucy Lawless! Ahhhhhhhhhhh!
Do these JihadWatch actually have lives? If they’re in IT, no wonder they contribute to the billions of dollars in lost productivity.
Stop wasting company resources to promote your hate you worthless rants.
Terminator, where’s the alleged shariah that is in full force in Kosovo?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070904/ap_on_re_af/new_religion_vs_old_gods
Lookie here, Christianity is contributing to the destruction of ancient African heritage.
This is what Christianity was supposed to bring to the heathen Africans, right?
Gents,
The name calling is rather childish.
When I enter an Islamic focused blog I expect to be challenged/ to challenge based upon ideology and viewpoint. I may even get incensed a bit but will not resort to name calling as it just cheapens any point I am trying to make.
Gess, given the recent killings of Muslims/Christians in Nigeria I’d question your thesis that all want to live under Sharia, please note where recently 5 Christians have been arrested in Algeria for preaching Christianity and may face jail time.
Danial, my friend, why do you quote the old Testiment when speaking to Christians? The New Testiment completed the old in ways that changed God’s relationship with man. Also, my friend, Islam, Chritianity and Judaism all originated in the same basic area and none of them is a western/eastern/african religion alone neither black nor white….you just see it that way.
The Serb/Muslim issue goes back hundreds of years but the issue remembered most, prior to the communist enforced peace, was WW2. During the war the majority of the Muslim population sided with the NAZI’s for political reasons and actually formed two Muslim SS Divisions that were used by the NAZI’s to terrorize the Serbians. Neither side has any chance at sainthood.
It’s funny, when the West invades the Mid East it is imperialism, when the Ottoman Turks invaded the West it was the Golden Age of Islam.
patb, Croats also sided with the Nazis during WW2 as well. Ironic how you left that out.
Since when did the Ottomans invade and forcefully convert others like the conquistadores and the European colonialists did in the Americas and Africa, respectively? Last I checked they are still Christian.
patb, if you want another good Islamic focused blog, also check out http://eteraz.wordpress.org
I wouldn’t have resulted to name-calling if it weren’t for JW pricks coming in and insulting us by referring to our Prophet as a pedophile. They can’t show respect, why do I have to show respect to them? The golden rule isn’t going to work towards these hate-filled pricks. They deserve to be rounded up and shot execution-style, like their Islamist brethen that they ironically have more in common with.
Err, http://eteraz.wordpress.com my bad for the wrong link.
apologists and collaborators will always try the moral equivilency game no matter how ridiculous. as far as i can tell, they try to make the argument that world wide genocide by muslims is ok because other groups also performed evil acts.
any organized group of humans have the capacity to do evil. many have, though i must applaud the muslim. very few groups ,if any, have had the success in killing so many different groups of people around the world in the same relative time frame as the muslim.
its is easy to see the work of the muslim where his numbers are large. they kill and maim and destroy all those who will not bow down or convert. we are not fooled when we see the activity of the muslim on 9/11, in london, the riots in france, the bombings in madrid, violence across the mideast, in china, pakistan, india, in russia, the beheadings in the phillipines, the killings in denmark to sadly name just a few.
the apologists would have us believe its just a few fake muslims causing world wide genocide, not true believers. they say its only a small percentage of adherents that are killing non-believers practically across the entire globe. they must think we are truly ignorant to buy into such an obvious lie.
nowhere and at no time has 1 cult been responsible for such misery over such a wide swathe of humankind. neither the nazis or stalinists were able to affect so many in such a horrible way.
Can’t get eteraz in Turkey. Turkey has blocked wordpress.
Spencers. read this!
Jewish groups plotted to kill Bevin
Neil Tweedie and Peter Day, Daily Telegraph (London), 22/05/2003
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/05/22/narch122.xml
Jewish terrorist groups plotted to assassinate Ernest Bevin, the Foreign Secretary in the post-war Labour government, as part of a bombing campaign on the British mainland inspired by the IRA. MI5 warned Clement Attlee, the prime minister, that the Stern Gang and Irgun intended to establish five terrorist cells in London to mount a bombing campaign aimed at driving Britain out of Palestine. Bevin, who was opposed to the creation of the state of Israel, was a prime target. Security Service files also contain details of an outlandish plan by the followers of an American Zionist rabbi to bomb London from the air. Details of that plot have been heavily censored.
The warnings came in 1946 from James Robertson, head of the Security Service’s Middle East Section. He wrote: “Our Jerusalem representative has received information that the Irgun and Stern groups have decided to send five cells to London to work on IRA lines. To use their own words, the terrorists intend to ‘beat the dog in his own kennel’. The Stern group has been steadily recruiting in recent months and may now number 600 followers, most of whom are desperate men and women who count their own lives cheap. In recent months it has been reported that they have been training selected members for the purpose of assassinating a prominent British personality. Special reference has been several times made to Mr Bevin.”
The plot to bomb the capital from the air was said to be the product of followers of one Rabbi Korff. Londoners were to be convinced of the rightness of the terrorists’ cause with leaflets dropped from the same aircraft as the explosives. The plot was foiled by MI5 and a number of arrests made in Paris. The report was written shortly after 18 men had been sentenced to death for a sabotage attack on the railway workshops at Haifa. Stern and Irgun warned that there would be 100 terrorist outrages in retaliation if the 18 were hanged. Their sentences were later commuted to life. Robertson identified Menachem Begin, the future Israeli prime minister, as leader of the 5,000-strong Irgun. Bevin was a hated figure among all the Jewish groups trying to establish a homeland, arguing that Jews needed to be re-assimilated into the nations of Europe in the aftermath of the Holocaust. He accused the United States of encouraging illegal migration to Palestine in contravention of British quotas.
We were talking Turkey. Suddenly frantic name calling and history muck raking back to Emmett Till and finally a word on the Joooooz. Typical muslim site.
Hey Sandra!
FYI, that link is from Telegraph, you know the same site where Melanie Phillips Mark Steyn write.
I was just giving you a hint, darling. Their times are numbered together with The Fjordman’
Robert Spencer and the rest of the Nazis gangs.
Better find new friends
Sandra, then why haven’t you left the site then? White trash.
Daniel you are wrong about “forced conversions” . The French sent in a few Jesuits who lived among the Hurons(Canada’s aborinals peoples), and brought with them stories of Jesus. The Hurons and later other Indian tribes converted peeacfully. l am a product of the intermarrieage of French and actually to be specific Alqonquin. There was no forces conversion by the sword that you see historically with all the expansion of Islam. Also the name l have chose as Zena has not much to do with the lables you chose to ridicule., but holds q very special meaning for me. As usual when you present unpleasant facts Islamic appologists attack the person. when you ou cannot deal with your history and what is actually written in your Islamic texts. Islam has a problem in that is will not allow true Democracy to flouish as in the West, and Asian countries such as Japan. It is a fact. The Christian faith because of Jesus has allowed a separation of Church and State. With Islam you do not have that, but a total control of your dailylife. so if your prefer to live in Soviat, Stalinist stype of a state, well come to “Muslim Values”.
“because jesus has allowed a separation of church ans state”
lol apparently you need to go and read some history books
Zena, you might want to reeducate yourself there. What you said was completely garbage.
Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s. The Puritans tried to create a perfect Christian state. Death penalty for adultery, etc. They came up with the witch trials. Any theocracy is bound to be oppressive because the people in charge think they speak for God.
The puritans are not in power and have been out of power for cernturies.. the Christian Church has reformed, and Daniel before you spew out “your garbage” you might want to look in the mirrow.. oh by the btw.. Daniel l hold a college degree in the sciences and have my own business and doing quite well as well as many of the people who write into JW. people like you cannot judge what is said but keep insisting on attacking people. You are the hateful bigot.
My original questions is what are “Muslim values”? that is presently being valued?
l have not heard what Muslim values does Turkey want to keep for themselves? Does anyone here support Sharia law? does anyone understand how Sharia works? Any liberal gals here want to live in a state or visit one with Sharia law? so if Muslim values are so precious, why are so many Muslims leaving their precious lands and immigrating to Sharia free lands in the West? can anyone use their logic without attacking me personally?
Zena
Muslim values would include a man and women being married before having sexual relationships. Allowing a woman that wears a headscarf to be educated and get gov’t services (not FORCING them to wear it). Bringing up chaste and educated children (boys and girls) and not wanting them to be like “liberated women” such as Brittany Spears or men like 50 cent. Muslim values are strong family values not. Muslim values would be values that are against lawlessness and ludeness. Many Americans share common values to Muslims would you not agree?
Muslims are moving away from the Muslim lands because of authoritarian rule that is NOT Islamic. You can’t get justice in many of those lands. It is sad but true.
Yusuf, the values you state are quite normal in all cultures and no can say they own it.
the reasons why Muslims leave their lands is caused by their culture and because Islam controls your everyday life, there is no speparation of State and Mosque you creat a vacuum where you cannot have a class of free people to chose their leaders. The only way to control the fanatics in Islam is through a dictator or as in Jordan, Kings. In believe the BinLaden saw his fear of the West beccause Western societys with Democracy take away the power from his immans, and people are free to chose their way of life, for which the Koran and Hadiths,etc is encoded to control your life.
Demcracy is not perfect but its the best mankind has to offer, and it clearly goes against the grain of Islam. you can chose to ignore about killing unbelievers, which is nice btw, but when Muslims become pious they can become dangerous. So you can sit back and wine about being victims, or you can admit the changes in the Koran and its books needs to be changed.. would be difficult as you can be killed for these actions.
Zena,
Why are Mexicans leaving their country? Why are Indians coming here? Why do Chinese come here? Why do Koreans come here? Why do Russians come here? Is it because of lack of separation of religion and state? Your entire reference of world history is about 6 years. All non-muslims have good countries and all muslims are bad everywhere. Last I checked, Mexico, S Korea and Russia all had democracies and were all non-muslim countries. So it seems that problems are across the board and not ONLY with Muslims.
I know MANY pious muslims that would not hurt a fly and I think that I have a much larger frame of reference than YOU do who only gets their information from slanted books and news reports that tell you that all of us are fanatics
Can you tell me where I have “wined about being a victim”? If you can not find it, then please stop putting words in my mouth. I find no such imperative to kill unbelievers and I do not believe that I have been ordered to do so. Yes, we all agree that fanatics like bin laden twist it, but if that were islam itself, you’d be fighting 1.3 billion people and the world would be on fire (not just Iraq and other random acts of terror). if you pay close attention to the news, you will find that the terrorists kill way more MUSLIMS than non-muslims and that it is not close. That is something you will not see mentioned by Spencer, Malkin or your other heros. Muslims are human beings and not roaches.
As for democracy itself, it is not against islam and I have no problems with it at all. Everyone in the world is not going to follow the Western culture. Live with it. You only see freedom in what you see here. I don’t personally see “freedom” in women acting like Lindsey Lohan or Paris Hilton.
Yusuf you seem preoccupied with Paris Hilton and her ilk, she only attracks the teenagers and immature men. The West allows people to act foolish, its our way of tolerance. When l said why do Muslims leave their countries, l also understand that other citizens of the world leave their countries for the Western style democracies. but here we are talking about specifically Turkish people and Muslims in general. You might not have a problem with freedom and Democracy, but it scares the hell out of islamists. Perhaps you might look at the latest installment at FaithFreedom, it was a great piece!
Zena,
I am a Westerner too, but we can’t ram our culture run down their throats? Do you not understand that?
Fanatics like Hamas and Hezbollah would love to have democracy. How do you think a democratic election would go in Jordan or Saudi Arabia?
As for Turkey, the ‘Islamists’ in power there will not and have not installed a theocracy.
By the way, Malaysia and Senegal already have it
BTW Zena, what would be wrong with a Muslim run Turkey (and so on) having Muslim federal holidays off from work?
Yeah, what would be wrong with a Muslim run Turkey. Same things that are wrong with a Muslim run Iran. Islamism is like Communism. People think its going to be great, then, Wah! they don’t like it.
Ask Shirin Ebadi, a judge under the shah - she was enthusiastic about having an Islamic state. It got in, she was demoted to clerk because she was female.
Yusuf you never ram Democracy down anyone’s throat, but people run faster towards it than any other type of governance. Malaysia is sliding towards a total Sharia, that means less freedoms and 2nd class status for women and non Muslims. The point with Democracy you take responsibility for what you vote in, so if people were fooled or wishful ingorant of Hammas they will pay the price. Democrzcy is best with educated people and in time perhaps the those people will demand better government.
The worst things about a welfare state is that it creates lazy people who expect the government to do all for them, hence you lose your freedom. Freedom is very precious for me as well as many Americans and other Western countries.
Democracy is good even if it elects howling Islamics. Their errors are revealed as they govern, and they are discredited. Islam is also discredited by this method.
Sandra, you’re a fucking idiot. The worst system in the world is in white majority countries. Look at all the shit faced morons who elected a luantic like Bush. Why can’t white people understand that they are a minority in the world and leave others to their affairs?
Douchebags.
Zoey why dont you look in the mirror, because you are nothing but a loser. what colour are you, pinko? lol…. you cannot articulate the questions?