Certainly NOT “Heroic”
“When we got in… we saw young, 15-, 16-year-old guys lying on the floor with their Bibles in their hands - all dead…”
Someone bursts in a school and opens fire on the students. A group of maniacs allegedly called this act “heroic”? Can someone tell me what was “heroic” about it? Do they think that the Virginia Tech shootings were also “heroic”? Where any of the school shootings that have taken place in the past years “heroic”.
This love of gore and violence by these maniacs is beyond the pale. This is TOTALLY unrecognizable to the religion that I became a part of 13 years ago. The religion that I embraced is teaches that we are supposed to stop a maniac like this from hurting people. That religion teaches that we are supposed to bring peace and justice to our neighborhoods and communities and not chaos and destruction.
Those who make excuses for this nonsense: If the Virginia Tech (and other similar) shootings were bad, then why is this good?
Filed under: Muslims DO Denounce Terror, The Culture of Denial and Pretense
I sympathize with children that are killed on BOTH sides. However, I just see no evidence of Israelis celebrating in the streets with glee when such an event happens. Americans did not celebrate with glee when any of the school shootings happened.
Couldn’t agree more brother Tariq
Palestine is in a desperate situation. The gunman who did this was probably insane and lost and was extremely emotional and took it out by doing something totally uncalled for and random.
I blame Israel, all the Palestinian government parties and the US for the killings of ALL the innocent people.
These governments do not desire what the people want. The people of Israel and Palestine both want an end to this bloodshed, but their governments want to continue to fight.
May Allah (swt) protect the innocent and bring justice to the oppressors. Ameen!
[...] “Islam” of celebrating the slaughter of children needs to be returned to sender. We have no need for it here in the United States and they can stop [...]
Ameen to MR’s dua’. Although I must say that while in almost any human situation it is correct to say that all of the powerful parties share some blame and responsibility, this does not necessarily advance us toward a solution. Then again, sometimes it does, and it is important to say.
I agree with you, Tariq, that Islaam calls for us to try to stop such actions. I am a little confused why when such actions are carried out ‘maniacs’ who are American or Israeli, you never say anything on your blog, but only when they are Muslims, you feel the obligation to say something.
Allaah knows best.
” I am a little confused why when such actions are carried out ‘maniacs’ who are American or Israeli, you never say anything on your blog, but only when they are Muslims, you feel the obligation to say something.”
To echo Abu Noor’s comment - I agree that their should be some fairness in this regards. There has been nothing mentioned on this blog regarding the Palestinian side of affairs.
Like this: http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2840
Abu Noor & Abu Hunain:
The distinction I make is that people are arguing that THIS IS FROM ISLAM to kill and maim children.
People are arguing these inhuman things are FROM ISLAM. It is different if the criminal happens to be a disturbed Muslim. But (again) they are arguing that THIS IS FROM ISLAM. They are arguing that ISLAM CALLS for this brutality.
It would be completely different if these acts were just out of desperation, but they ARE USING ISLAM as a justification and calling those who disagree with these attacks heretics. This is the difference.
Let me ask you all who want us to shill for the Palestinian terror organizations why we must remain silent when our religion is used in such a manner?
Salaam,
I think supporting Palestinians means to denounce this type of act, because how in the world does it help Gaza’s suffering? In what possible way does this help, it can only hurt.
I don’t think it’s one or the other. Saying this is wrong and a crime does not then make Israel’s crimes disappear.
As salaamu ‘alaykum Abdur-Rahman,
Who is it exactly who asked you (or Tariq) to “shill” for anybody.
Who is it who asked you to remain silent?
Tariq,
No doubt you should speak up if you feel Islam is being abused to call for evil.
But you stated on your post that Islam was about trying to stop such actions….I was just wondering why Islam wasn’t about trying to stop such actions when they are carried out against Muslims as well. Our Prophet (saw) taught us that the ummah is like a single body…if one part of the ummah is hurting none of us should be able to ignore it. Our Prophet (saw) also taught us that the ummah is a single brotherhood. So why in the world would we remain silent when our brothers, sisters and children are massacred before our eyes?
I realize that none of us can comment on every single thing injustice, nor is commenting on a blog necessarily that heroic or likely to result in change (which is the goal of speaking out — to change something with our tongue). Islaam does not call for killing innocents, but Islaam does without a doubt call for resistance to oppression and occupation.
What is this world coming to?
Abu Noor:
I don’t see the slaughter of kids in a school (whether in Virginia Tech, Columbine, Baslan or Jerusalem) as resistance to occupation.
Resistance to occupation is one thing. Slaughtering children is something quite different.
Again, I want to re-iterate that these people are saying that *Islam* calls this SOMETHING NOBLE. This is my problem.
I understand your desire to distance Islam from such acts of terrorism. There is absolutely no justification for such acts from an Islamic point of view.
However, while you are quick to point out this act of terrorism, I ask you dear brother, where are the other posts that condemn the terrorism and injustice being inflicted on Gaza everyday? Why condemn the deaths of 10 Israelis and not at the same time, condemn the deaths of 100+ Palestinians (more than half of them civilians)? Or consider what caused this cycle of violence to start (nope, it wasn’t the home-made rockets either):
Israel’s “Retaliatory” Killing Machine Fully Justified
Certainly the celebrations were unfortunate. But when you have people whose hopes, dignity and for the most part, livelihood have been ripped away– setting them up in a squalid cage, then perhaps you will start to understand why people react in a way that would seem inhumane to us.
Let me give you an example: If the black race in America was oppressed and enslaved (as it was), its rights stripped and its opportunities stolen, and then as a reaction, a few black folk (can anyone say “black panthers”
would shoot down a couple of whitees (innocent victims of terrorism we will agree). Don’t you think a few black people celebrated that act of terrorism? Consider then the condition of the Palestinians in Gaza, prisoners in their own homes:
Israeli Occupation Causes Terrorism (UN Report Finds)
You and others should read both this report and the report linked in the article by Amnesty/OXFAM/et al describing the conditions of Palestinians in Gaza as being the worst in 40 years! And then those who are asking why Israelis didn’t celebrate (I guarantee you many did, perhaps not in this open fashion, and we know that the media likes to report only Palestinian infractions) can question why the Palestinians would.
Amad:
Here is where the logic breaks down
1 - We are talking about more than a “few” here in the attacks and a “few” celebrations here.
2 - No black radical group (much less one that called for the complete extermination of whites) has received the kind of widespread support that Hamas enjoys. If there were such a thing, there would have been a full fledged race war a long time ago.
3 - There was no RELIGIOUS justification brought for such an act. Let’s look at the Reginald Denny incident. What RELIGIOUS justification was used for that? And it is interesting to note that an African-American came to Mr Denny’s aid and MANY blacks were appalled at that.
This kind of thinking that because Palestinians are oppressed therefore they have a license to violate the rules of Islam is what leads Palestinian liquor store owners to do what they please in their businesses - including lie, cheat and steal. Because of the situation in Palestine, they can sell the haraam and send the money back home. These store owners who sell bad food and treat the people rotten will rant against Jewish oppression as some kind of justification. Trust me, I have spoken to many of them and my home is over run with these guys. People who believe that the Palestinians are all some “angelic people” would be shocked at the evil they are involved in.
However, none of this is to deny the condition of those who are genuinely oppressed. My main point is that they are using Islam (not frustration) to justify these attacks
The logic actually doesn’t break down. I was referring to the psychology of oppression, regardless of what it is rooted in (race, religion, color or whatever).
Trust me, if the civil-rights movement didn’t happen, a lot more blacks would joining non-peaceful movements than did originally.
Regardless, what I find interesting is that you completely ignored my other points:
(1) I never justified this terrorism, that was part of my first sentence.
(2) I only mentioned that one can understand why people react in an unfortunate, inhuman-seeming way if one takes into account their conditions. This doesn’t JUSTIFY the action, it explains the reaction of those who celebrated. Your whole discussion about Palestinians and their “haraam” actions is irrelevant to my point.
(3) I am still waiting for your condemnation of the terrorism inflicted by the Israelis. Why is it that Muslim blood is cheap that its spilling doesn’t need the same sort of vapid condemnation as Jewish blood? I am talking about balance. About fairness. About believers being “ruhamah” to other believers.
Everyday over the last week, I have been imagining how it would be to live in Gaza. To live in squalid conditions, without proper utilities. Have you thought about that brother? Have you thought about using your blog to enlighten Americans about these innocent victims of collective Israeli punishment? Even by just posting the Amnesty report, for instance? If you can’t be partial to your brothers and sisters, at least be balanced. Is that too much to ask?
wallahualam
Amad
I know that YOU are not justifying terrorism. My main point is (again) let them stop using islam as a justification. They use Islam as the primary driving force for their attacks. Not that they are oppressed.
This is not about Jewish or Muslim blood. I am talking about people who think that they can use Islam to do what they want. THAT is what is offensive. I just can’t look the other way on that.
There are brothers who think they are justified Islamically to rob banks - and they are just as WRONG.
I feel that my role is to tell Americans - and I do it in person too - that these attacks are NOT Islamic because we hear it coming from all over that they ARE.
The unspoken subtext is that Jews are always responsible for whatever misery is heaped upon them
If Israel wanted to, it could go in and demolish Hamas and Islamic Jihad in one fell swoop?
They have nukes. If they are so evil, then why have they not just nuked the Palestinians?
btw, if the shoe were on the other foot, how do you think the ‘palestinians’ would use nuclear power?
Jazzak Allahu khayr Tariq for your attempts to clarify what you are saying and answer our questions.
I think everyone understands the point of your post and no one who has commented here has disagreed with you. None of us has tried to say that what happened was correct and none of us has tried to say that it was wrong for you to condemn it or to distance Islam from it. I did not say that the killing in the school was legitimate resistance, I was saying that resistance is demanded by Islam to injustice, so I was wondering why I have not seen you engage in or support any resistance (verbally on your blog) or even ever point out the injustice of the occupation or the Israeli murder of innocents, which occurs far more often than Palestinian murder of Israeli innocents.
Again, I see why you feel the need to condemn injustices done in the name of Islam. I do not understand why you consistently do not condemn the injustices against Muslims. I appreciate that you have tried to answer this, but I still dont’ understand.
As to your comment that “they” use Islam and not the fact that they are oppressed as the primary driving force for their attacks — this is simply not true. In the case of Hamas, they are absolutely explicit that the attacks are a means of resisting the occupation or avenging the attacks of Israel. This is not to say that they are correct that this is Islamically legitimate, nor to say that this is a good or effective strategy, but there can be no doubt that the actions of Hamas are done as an act of resistance. (The fact that the actions are driven by oppression can be seen clearly in the fact that more secular groups among the Palestinians use and endorse the same tactics as Hamas and Islamic Jihad use).
Differences between the Palestinians and the Israelis:
1. Israelis never celebrate the deaths of civilians, while Palestinians ALWAYS do.
2. Israelis never deliberately target innocent civilians, while Palestinians ALWAYS do.
3. Israelis develop weapons that minimize the deaths of innocent civilians, while Palestinians develop weapons that maximize the deaths of innocent civilians.
anonymous,
The unspoken subtext of what? The attacks themselves, or something said on this thread?
anonymous,
What is the unspoken subtext of the fact that the whole world mourns the deaths of the Israeli students (as it should), but the deaths of dozens of innocent Palestinians is not even news here in the U.S.?
If the Israelis would have taken to the streets to celebrate after the Gaza raids, I would have said the same thing about them. But they didn’t. And they don’t. The rest of the world does not happen to think the cold blooded execution of children is a reason to celebrate.
Thad,
Israelis don’t celebrate the death of innocent civilians, they just continue to kill more of them.
Do you know how many children have been killed in Gaza in the past month? Do you care?
Salaam,
Not to speak for Tariq, but he’s never really talked about foreign Muslim issues on his blog, from what I remember, except for every once in a while condemning a terrorist act. So I don’t think not talking about Israeli attacks on civilians is something he has specifically avoided, but it’s not really the focus of the blog. As far as I understand.
“but the deaths of dozens of innocent Palestinians is not even news here in the U.S.?”
Excuse me? It was all over the news. How did you hear about it?
Abu Noor:
Does Hamas and other similar groups not tell the people that perform these attacks that there is an ISLAMIC justification? Do they not tell them that they will be “shaheed”? The entire methodology permeates the entire society now. The secular groups also use this
I do not condone the celebration of any killing.
The idea that Israelis never celebrate the killing of civilians is just plain wrong.
The grave of Baruch Goldstein, who murdered 29 Palestinians praying in a mosque, was turned into a site of pilgrammage and bizarre Purim celebrations where people would dress up like him.
The rabbis of the settler movement issue religious rulings saying that killing of Arabs is permissible.
The crowd that gathered at the school yesterday shouted “Death to Arabs” and called for revenge killing by the IDF of Palestinians.
Safia,
I understand your point. I understand Tariq does not cover international issues in general. I just was asking why he did think he should comment if a Palestinian kills an Israeli, but not if an Israeli kills a Palestinian. I think he has tried to answer the question as best he could.
Thanks for your comment as well.
Tariq,
Yes, they say that it is justified Islamically as a way of fighting the OCCUPATION. That was my only point. You said they use Islam, “not that they are oppressed.” I am not saying they do not use Islam, but the second part of your statement was wrong because Hamas mentions the reality of their being oppressed in every single statement that they mention. In fact the very name of the group is “Islamic Resistance Movement” — the whole basis of the group is resistance to occupation and oppression. It is not as if the tactics were invented by Muslims and have filtered to the rest of the society, the tactics were invented and used, and Muslims including Hamas have adopted them.
Allah knows best.
Anonymous,
I heard about it on Islamic and Arab news sources, primarily on the internet. It was not a story in mainstream media as far as I know, but I admit I do not have access to all of the mainstream media.
Wanta guess if we did a poll of Americans of how many heard of the deaths of the Palestinians prior to the Jerusalem school killings and how many heard about the Jerusalem school killings what the results would be?
My perception is that the general public didn’t even know what was going on until the Jerusalem killings happened. But I could be wrong.
Tariq,
You know many Muslims will not allow you to remove yourself from the Palestinian question. I have left that brother. Some Muslims have to add the word ‘but’…. If a suicide bomber kills people some Muslims want you to denounce the killer but also denounce the Israelis on some level. Well, what I haven’t seen stated yet is simply that Muslims are not being aligned with the horrible acts of some Israelis, the general public identifies our religion (and us) with the extreme Muslims among us. Its sad that the Palestinian question has been forged into the Quran for everybody and not just the Palestinians.
WIth that being the case, that Jerusalem is a holy land for Muslims (not just for Palestinians), then that is what Allah has stated. It is not sad, its a fact of life as a Muslim. As a Pakistani-American Muslim, I have no more “special” loyalty to the holy lands or to Palestine than an African-American Muslim or xx-xx Muslim.
I believe, my friend Charles, that you still don’t see what a few of us are trying to say here. So, let me state another example. If a member of your extended family kills 10 members of my extended family. And then one of my family members kills 1 of your family members.
Following this, I bemoan and condemn the action of the murderer in my family (justifiably so), yet I fail to mention the 10 killed in my own family. Then do you feel (a) it is fair? and (b) other members of my family will not be saddened or angered by my complete disregard for what happened in my family?
I am not saying it has to be tit for tat everytime. Last week, the Gaza murders happened, so talk about it then and condemn the Israelis for it. Yesterday, the seminary attack happened, so talk about it and condemn it. Not necessary to have a “but”, but I feel only fair to talk about both. Balance is NOT equal to justification.
If I am still not clear, then I rest my case.
On a closing note (for me on this post), you know there’s something that has been nudging at me for sometime now. You know the feeling of brotherhood, of one Ummah, of hurting when our brothers or sisters are hurting anywhere in the world… well brothers and sisters, that is indeed a SPECIAL feeling… it is a feeling of iman, of true faith. It is not necessary that this feeling become unreasonable and overbearing in everything, but we HAVE to hold on to that feeling. My heart will feel for my brother in pain, whoever and wherever he is… be it a black brother in America or an Arab brother in Palestine or a Chechnyan brother or a Chinese brother. Don’t let ANYONE take that feeling away. Don’t let the screaming bloggers (and I am not talking about Tariq
) or anyone else put a wedge between you and your brother in faith based on ethnicity, color, race, nationality or any other artificial bond. Islam removed the bonds of jahiliyah. Let’s remember that. [And please don't misunderstand this: I am not saying that your culture, race or nationality are not important and that you shouldn't have some love or loyalty to it... don't let that ever be a more important driver than your deen--- that's what I mean].
Here’s an example of “peace-loving” LGF f**ktards calling for the slaughter of Palestinian women and children.
i have read all the above posts and think there is a simple answer to all this .If both sides stopped the fighting in time they would melt in to a workable sulution. Killing breeds killing always tit for tat .The billions of dollars spent on killing each other could have bought paridice by now, a good life for both sides thats what most reasonable people on both sides should strive for.
If moms and dads on both sides said no more they would put a stop to the killing .
no more lobing rockets no more going in after them simple right?
As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,
What some people are forgetting is that the culprit here was an East Jerusalem Palestinian, not one from Gaza or the West Bank. East Jerusalem is politically part of Israel, even if most of its residents (unlike the Arabs who actually live in Israel) refuse Israeli citizenship. The victims, on the other hand, were religious students who most likely were never going to fight, as they had an exemption. So even the justification commonly cited in favour of suicide bombings, that all Israelis are soldiers or that the victims were off-duty soldiers about to go back on duty, does not apply to this case.
There would BE no occupation if not for ‘wars of annihilation’ (Nasser’s words not mine), if not for Haj Amin Husseini, the Hitter ally, whose complete domination, murders, and intimidation of all who disagreed with utter REJECTION of the jews and a state, and this entire way of thinking is continued today with HAMAS, and they are proud to say so.
So long as HAMAS is the freely elected majority govt, and expressed the real will of the Palestinian peoples, there will be a war over the waqf, a religious war. But who will raise themselves to say let’s have peace when the moment you do so, HAMAS treats you as an apostate and legalizes your death by amoral goon squads who think they are backed by god? So it has been since Abu Musa in 1919.
On the day the Palestinian peoples reject HAMAS, and reject rejection, we will have a political situation which negotiation can solve. Until then, there’s really nothing to discuss except humans ability to fool themselves that a solution is possible.
As it is … it’s a religious war of survival of the peoples.
Ugly, but that’s how it REALLY is.
“Palestine is in a desperate situation. The gunman who did this was probably insane and lost and was extremely emotional and took it out by doing something totally uncalled for and random.”
Palestine is not in a desperate situation. The living standard in Gaza and the West Bank is higher than in surrounding Arab countries, infant mortality is lower, and the education and healthcare systems are better.
While their life is not super, it can hardly be called “desperate” unless you also consider life in Egypt or Jordan “desperate” and expect Egyptians and Jordanians to kill each other and citizens of neighbouring countries as well.
The gunman was not insane or lost, he lived in East-Jerusalem, or so I hear. He was an Israeli citizen (if he so chose, people in East-Jerusalem can claim citizenship) or had Israeli residency. Far from being in a desperate state he enjoyed an even higher living standard than the people in Gaza or outside Jerusalem.
The desperation theory of terrorism is a myth. Truly desperate people, like the hungry in Africa do NOT commit acts of terrorism. Darfurians are dying at a rate of 100,000/year but are not committing acts of terrorism.
What Hamas and their ilk do has nothing to do with desperation except in that they cause it.
They have television and radio stations. They are “desperate” people with television stations. How desperate can you be when you can afford to run propaganda television stations?
When the border to Egypt was open, the Gazans literally bought the north-east of Sinai empty. Prices for everything went up by 400%. Egyptians went into Gaza and were surprised how rich Gaza is.
Yes, Gaza is poor, but compared to Israel and the west it is. Compared to Egypt Gaza is rich.
“I blame Israel, all the Palestinian government parties and the US for the killings of ALL the innocent people.”
I don’t blame Israel. Take a look at Hamas’ television and you will understand what Hamas are fighting for. And you will understand why Israel responds as it does, although I am still surprised that it always takes Israel so long to shoot back. Hizbullah had to shell towns in northern Israel for five years before Israel shot back, Gaza had to shoot dozens of rockets per week into Israel for two years before Israel reacted.
I blame Israel for not reacting quicker. And I blame the world’s anti-Semitism for making it clear that for Israel to fight back is considered criminal.
“These governments do not desire what the people want. The people of Israel and Palestine both want an end to this bloodshed, but their governments want to continue to fight.”
The Israeli government has no interest in fighting. There is nothing to gain from fighting Arabs other than survival. Israel does not get rich by oppressing Arabs. Israel does not get rich by drafting every 19-year old, boy or girl, into the army for two or three years. And whenever election time, Israelis vote for whichever party claims to want peace. (As opposed to Palestinians who voted for Hamas who advocated war. Granted voting for the PLO is also pointless.)
Israel has always recognised the Palestinian Arabs. Israel’s declaration of independence granted Arabs citizenship. And while a point could be made that that was a lie (based on, I don’t know, “knowledge” that it must have been a lie or previous experience with Jews always lying or whatever) it was only changed after Arab countries attacked and local Arabs co-operated with the invaders. (That is what lost Palestinian Arabs the Arab part of cisjordan Palestine to Egypt and Transjordan.)
Eventually citizenship was given to all Arabs who had remained in Israel, most of whom had been loyal to Israel when it was attacked in 1948. I shared a dorm with Israeli Arabs when I studied in Haifa.
As Epaminondas says, there would be no war, no occupation, no oppression if it hadn’t been for anti-Semites like Nasser (”We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood”), PLO chairman Ahmed Shukairy (”I estimate that none of them [Jews] will survive.”), and “Grand Mufti” al-Husayni (”Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them.”).
All of the statements have been made before the occupation began. The last was spoken in Berlin in 1944. It was hardly a reaction to any supposed crimes committed by Israel. It was plain and simple anti-Semitism.
“May Allah (swt) protect the innocent and bring justice to the oppressors. Ameen!”
I hope so too, but I’m afraid Allah does not traditionally include the Jewish leaders among the oppressors. Traditionally, Allah saves Israel from the attackers, even if it requires miracles. I have full faith that He will continue to protect His people.
There won’t be a third exile, remember? The Jews will never leave again.
Epaminondas, you are incorrect about one thing. It’s not a religious war. It’s not about Islam, it’s about Arab nationalism (the PLO) and pseudo-Muslim heretics (Hamas). Islam has no issues with Jews living in the holy land and Judaism has no issues with “strangers living among Jews” in Israel (as traditional texts put it). (Some Zionist extremists want to get rid of the Arabs, but they are social outcasts in Israel. Those among them that have any influence at all want to pay Arabs to leave rather than expel them.)
If this came down to religion we would have a solution. But the plain fact is that secular Arab nationalism did not look to the Quran for answers (even though al-Husayni claimed to do that) and that what Hamas do has nothing to do with Islam.
It’s an interesting and challenging question: why the heartbreak and outrage over 8 students in Israel, yet little of the same for the innocent Palistinians who died in Israeli attacks in Gaza preceding the school attacks?
Before the school shootings I was considering the attacks on Gaza, wondering if Israel was overreacting? Or are the Palistinians and Hamas trying to say “we should be able to lob rockets randomly into Israel and Israel just has to sit back and take it.” I didn’t and don’t believe that Israel deliberately targeted civilians. But maybe I am missing something here. Right after Israel’s attacks in the US we began hearing that living conditions in Gaza (which we already knew were bad) are worse now than they have been in 40 years. So in my case (maybe I’m representative of many Americans, eh?) I was torn and my thinking unresolved. Then, suddenly…BAM!! And eight students killed in a yeshiva while reading their Bibles. And while I felt outraged I also thought is it entirely the fault of suicide attackers that they have apparently turned their back on humanity? That they seem to have lost their souls? What about mitigating circumstances? And then quickly we all saw the photos and heard the news of ordinary people in Gaza in jubilation, enjoying quite a holiday because some teenages were murdered by “their team”. Man, how much brutality and insanity can we mitigate?
Anyway, longwinded I know, but I wanted to share, particularly with the other team, what some of us go through in our thinking. The bottom line I think is that, we KNOW you have legitimate complaints, but we can’t hear you because the suicide bombers are so loud. I don’t think ANY oppressed people in the history of humanity (and in this Palistinians are hardly alone) have EVER resorted to such incredibly barbaric acts in their struggle.
If they would try a different tack, they might find many Americans actually want to support the underdog - it’s more or less in our nature. But actually glorifying what’s clearly evil - no matter what the ends - I don’t think we’re ever going to cosign on to that. And whoever does, Moslem or otherwise, well…that’s just something you’re going to have to live with I guess.
Thanks for letting me have my say.
The irony is that, some time ago I began an e-petition to make my readers aware of the horrible potential in using cluster bombs and landmines. These two weapons have been used all around the world and more recently in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. Yet few people have actually signed the petition which is being monitored by the US Campaign to Ban Landmines and a few other groups. How can we Muslims state our position when we are not thorough in our approach?
To Amad:
You’re asking us to be balanced. You know and I know hardly an Imam connects their issue to the holiness of Jerusalem. What many bloggers are responding to is the need to be balanced in our mosques, in our views, and in our humanity, not just in condemning some rogue co-religionists. For many of us stepping out of the shadows, we’ve been lambasted with how we are supposed to view the issues in those specific territories. The status quo position of Muslims has been that we should see the suffering of the Palestinian people and interpret the circumstances in light of that suffering. I am no longer prepared to adopt that nor am I prepared to adopt the ’sufferage’ of any group anymore just because someone somewhere says I’m supposed to. And I speak for many when I say it is no longer clear how our religion requires us to view those specific issues and quoting a few verses from the Quran or hadeeth apparently aren’t going to do the trick. The phrase ‘be balanced’ sounds good; however, with regard to the Palestinian question and murder, using the phrase ‘be balanced’ does little more than remind the Israelis that they killed someone and reminds the Palestinians that they suffered and vice versa.
“Right after Israel’s attacks in the US we began hearing that living conditions in Gaza (which we already knew were bad) are worse now than they have been in 40 years.”
That is true.
Living conditions in Gaza were worst before the occupation and are worse now than they were during the occupation.
The problem is, what does that tell us about the occupation? How oppressive was it really? I grew up in occupied territory myself and thus know that there is nothing inherent in occupation that is bad. It’s down to living conditions.
And we now know that living conditions in Gaza now (that is before Israel responses to the attacks) are better than living conditions in Egypt, and that living conditions in Gaza during the occupation were better than before the occupation, and that living conditions in Gaza during the occupation were before than before Israel’s withdrawal a few years ago.
So this brings us back to the question. What exactly are the Palestinian Arabs fighting for? I know they scream “death to the Jews” and everything and thus it is quite clear what at least some of them are fighting for. But when people speak of the “Palestinian cause” they are not talking (or don’t want to talk) about the PLO’s connection to the Nazis or Nasser’s attempt to destroy Israel. They are talking about legitimate grievances of Arabs in Palestine.
Which cause is being furthered by killing Jewish kids in a school, the “death to the Jews” cause or the “legitimate grievances” cause? What cause is being furthered by giving money to Hamas and the PLO? How much has all the money given to the PLO actually helped the Palestinian Arabs? They are richer than Egyptians and Jordanians, perhaps, but is that due to Arafat’s wife being a multimillionaire or due to Israel’s oppression or what?
So what is the “Palestinian cause” about? Do they want to go back under Egyptian and Jordanian rule (and lose the higher standard of living they had under Israeli rule)? If they don’t want that, why do they see Egypt and Jordan as possible friends?
And if they want independence, why don’t they declare it and leave Israel alone? The answer that Israel wouldn’t let them flies in the face of the plain fact that Israel has really nothing to gain from fighting Palestinian Arabs. Israel does not profit from the occupation, apart from the security it provides and which wouldn’t be needed if Palestinian Arabs were not hostile.
What do Palestinian Arabs have to gain from fighting Israel? The “death to the Jews” crowd obviously have a lot to gain. But why are the others participating? Why have 70% voted for a party (Hamas) that promised war with Israel? Perhaps the “death to the Jews” crowd is really quite big and Palestinian Arabs don’t want peace? (Or perhaps that crowd is quite intimidating and nobody wants to admit that they want peace?)
The PLO gain from fighting with Israel because without that war, they lose their power. You don’t have to entertain a “liberation” organisation if you don’t want to “liberate”. And an organisation like the PLO, with its connections to terrorists and Nazis is not an asset but a major problem for a nascent state.
Hamas want war because they want to win it. The PLO want war because they want the war to continue. Do Palestinian Arabs disagree with both propositions and just don’t have another choice? Perhaps.
And that is why Israel must, I think, start talking to clan leaders. There have been talks between Jews and Arabs in Hevron lately; and even though the PA (i.e. the PLO) tried to punish the sheikhs for it, the sheikhs were just too powerful. Perhaps Israel should talk to them.
I will outline the idea and come back when I am done.
Shalom.
Andrew.
Thank you Andrew - excellent posts.
For all those who post comparisons between Palestinian innocent victims and Israeli ones, I want to address the common notion of “the cycle of violence”.
Israel would never attack and accidently (I cannot stress this enough - when Israel harms innocents, they always view it as an unfortunate accident) kill innocent people if left alone. The “Cycle of violence” picture so often presented is false. I understand how appealing this presentation is, as it allows one to neutrally lament the violence, while feeling superior to it all, but it is not an accurate depiction of the situation. Israel left Gaza, yet the Gaza residents responded by electing Hamas (in a landslide victory), an organization devoted to the destruction of Israel. It then proceeded to launch attacks against Israel, including constant raining of rockets on civilian targets. The leaving of Gaza, like many other previous attempts, represented Israel’s desire to unilaterally (unilaterally not out of choice, but out of desperation due to lack of finding a willing peaceful Palestinian partner) break the “cycle”. But it didn’t work. Hamas does not want an end to this cycle, every time it breaks they start it anew, and the Gaza Palestinian overwhelmingly want Hamas as its leaders.
This is why (or rather, one of several reasons) there is no symmetry between the parties.
Salaam:
Just for the sake of accuracy (and nothing else):
///The victims, on the other hand, were religious students who most likely were never going to fight, as they had an exemption. So even the justification commonly cited in favour of suicide bombings, that all Israelis are soldiers or that the victims were off-duty soldiers about to go back on duty, does not apply to this case.//
It is my understanding that the students of that school are followers of Gush Emunium, who are the charedis who are quite eager to serve in the IDF, and were the first to do so. In the years since, more and more charedis have started serving (from different parties). Doesn’t mean anything vis a vis what is being argued above, but I just wanted to point that out — not all “religious students” in Isra’il avoid military service.
[...] tipo de Islam a América (h/t LGF): STAMP THIS specious variety of “Islam” which celebrates the slaughter of children. We have no need for it here in the United States and they can stop trying to feed it to us.What do [...]
Thanks to Tariq for recognizing the evil of this Jerusalem act, and the insane counter-productive behavior of the Hamas govt in blessing it, and the horrid impression made by Gazan celebrations of it (broadcast by the Hamas govt itself).
Several bloggers here have brought up Gaza, either as a parallel, an excuse, or an extenuating circumstance. Michael Walzer is one of the leading political philosophers of our time, and a man of the Left. Here is his argument regarding situations such as Gaza:
When terrorists intentionally shoot rockets at enemy civilians, while hiding among their own civilians and using them as human shields, the responsibility for what occurs from the counterfire lies with the terrorists–AND ONLY WITH THEM. They–and ONLY THEY–are responsible for the casualties among the civilians whom they intentionally hide among while shooting rockets at civilians.
Comments?
I understand Tariq’s comments. I also understand that there is a large area of grey here.
As Yusuf stated it was a religious school, what he does not mention is that the school has the home of the reliigous settlers in the West Bank and Gaza. This is the school that gave birth to that effort. This is were a lot of the religious extremists living in the West Bank came from.
Of course that does not justify the attack, but it provides context. Of course Israelis do not celebrate attacks where dozens of civilians are killed, being the occupier and in an unquestionable position of power, why would they? Israeli society, from top to bottom, is a militarised violent society.
EVERY man from age 18-like 45 is REQUIRED to serve in the military, with the exception of some ultra orthodox. They like to say they wouldnt kill civilians, women and children, if Hamas and other groups “didnt hide within Palestinian society” but this is more than a bit ironic when Israeli society is one giant cover for their military.
Tariqs blog generally doesnt cover intenational issues of any kind, whether it is Palestinian, Kashmiri or Chechan, there are more than enough blogs out there that do that.
The very reaon d’ entre for Tariqs blog tends to be concern for American issues and the American Muslim community, so I do not have a problem with his post because it fits squarly into that vision. The attempt by some to provide an Islamic justification for these types of attacks is a threat in itself against the American Muslim community.
Es triste( para los ninos y las otra gente), pero loco y ridiculo.( para las malo gente).
Whether it’s Spanish, French or another language, the words are universal: those killings were awful. I just don’t see how those guys can live with themselves committing those acts.( It’s been a while since I’ve taken Spanish.Forgive me if I may sound a little rusty in my response)
Andrew,
You write “Palestine is not in a desperate situation. The living standard in Gaza and the West Bank is higher than in surrounding Arab countries, infant mortality is lower, and the education and healthcare systems are better..”
Typical old colonial mindset. Because the colonialists can give them a better society, give them more, they should be happy to be occupied?
I hate to break it to you, but that kind of thinking went out 30 years ago or more.
It is clear that the Palestinians would WELCOME a lower standard of living if they were allowed to be the masters of their own destiny.
Your argument has been used before. Colonial masters argued that their colonies were better off under the white man’s rule. Supporters of slavery in the USA rightfully pointed out that many former slaves live better under slavery than they did after they were freed.
I doubt you’d have got many freed slaves wanting to take up their shakles again for better housing and food. Likewises, not many members of former colonies would invite their white masters back from Europe for better run government.
Freedom is not free and often a set back in standards of living follow people’s freedom, but world history shows it is a choice that the colonised and occupied would gladly make.
I have to laugh a bit when people point to Gaza and ask why when the Israelis left things didnt get better and the violence continued.
The Israelis created the world’s biggest prison, blockaded on all sides, and people ask why things didnt get better? As to violence, Israelis left only a small section of the land that is occupied, did anyone really think the resistance to the occupation of the rest of Palestinian land would cease?
These people are setting up strawmen so they can tear them down and claim victory.
It seems to me that Arab blood spilling at the hands of non-arabs creates irrational thinking. For example, where is the outrage against the NCP/NIF against the Darfurians. Where is the outrage against Muslims being enslaved in Mauritania.
Please do not say because Jerusalem is Holy and Sacred to Muslims.
Is the blood of an African Muslim cheaper than the blood of an Palestinian/Arab muslim?
Americans who are informed will look at muslims with utter disgust at this hypocrisy.
As AA muslims we must connect the dots because others are totally in denial and delusional.
We feel for the Palestinians but who feels for us.
Salaam
One correction, they were not holding ‘Bibles’ in their hands but copies of the Talmud.
Abu Sinan, the argument of many is that Gaza is being subjected to “genocide” by Jews, that it is being “destroyed”, that people are “starving”–which presumably explains and excuses both the 800 missiles fired from Gaza at civilian targets in pre-1967 Israel since January, as well as the seminary massacre of Thursday. Take a look at what passes for the pro-Palestinian argument on HNN.com.
It is against THIS argument–that terrorism emerges out of economic desperation, or (in the Gaza case) as merely a response to “genocide”, rather than looking at (say) jihadist ideology–that Andrew’s point has great relevance. The standard of living, the infant mortality rate, the educational and health systems in Gaza–while worse than Western standards on all these fronts– are all better than in surrounding Muslim countries.
That don’t take away every argument for the Palestinians–not at all. But it DOES take away one argument being employed to excuse their conduct, the “desperation” argument. That was Andrew’s point, I believe.
Tariq, every attack by Israel on Palestinians is justified by the Jewish religion because of their belief that God gave the land to them.
And while news of these deaths doesn’t bring joy to my heart, neither do i feel sad about it. These settlers are the worst of the worst, and the most extreme of their fundamentalists. Someone mentioned Baruch Goldstein earlier whose grave they have turned into a shrine. And i’m sure many of you have seen the picture of the Israeli soldiers posing for photos over the body of a dead palestinian. So much for Jews not revelling in the death of innocents.
What this Palestinian man did was a drop in the ocean compared to what Jews have been doing in that land for 60+ years.
“That don’t take away every argument for the Palestinians–not at all. But it DOES take away one argument being employed to excuse their conduct, the “desperation” argument. That was Andrew’s point, I believe.”
Precisely.
And I don’t care about mindsets being out of fashion. Something is either true or not, it doesn’t matter whether it is in fashion.
Hungry Africans are desperate but do not commit terror attacks, and there are very few Arabs who are “masters of their own destiny”. (Which Arab country is a democracy They are ALL ruled by somebody else.)
“What this Palestinian man did was a drop in the ocean compared to what Jews have been doing in that land for 60+ years.”
That’s ridiculous. The so-called “settlers” are not quite as violent as you pretend they are. And when they attack an Arab school and kill a few kids (if they have ever done so), you won’t find other Jews celebrating it.
“Attacks” on anyone are not justified by the Jewish religion, but thanks for bringing up the missing piece of anti-Semitism in this discussion. You won’t find many Zionists who believe that defending against terror attacks constitutes “attacking” anyway.
As for Goldstein’s “shrine”:
“Members of the Labor Party called for the shrine-like landscaped prayer area near the grave to be removed, and Israeli security officials have expressed concern that the grave will encourage extremists.” (from Wikipedia)
Where is the similar Arab reaction to Arafat’s shrine? He murdered A LOT more than Goldstein did, and while Goldstein was condemned by the vast majority of Israelis and Jews, Arafat is still a hero. THAT is the difference.
There are nutters on both sides, it’s the acceptance rate that counts. (And the number of nutters, if you will.)
“These settlers are the worst of the worst, and the most extreme of their fundamentalists.”
And that is true and just goes to show how harmless Israelis really are. The “settlers” are the worst, but none of them are as bad as even the “moderate” PLO.
Do you even know what the “settlers” actually do in Hevron and what their connection with the local Arabs is?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125215
“The Israelis created the world’s biggest prison, blockaded on all sides, and people ask why things didnt get better?”
Actually, the world biggest prison was West-Berlin during the cold war. I grew up in it. Guess what, not throwing rockets into Soviet-controlled territory helped. And let’s not even begin to talk about my attitude towards Poland and Russia who annexed German land and expelled the German population. I give you one hint: It does NOT justify attacking Polish schools or kindergartens. These things happen and the Palestinian Arabs are not the only ones it ever happened to. They are just the only ones who are still screaming “death to the Jews” when surrounded by Jews.
And I still ask why things didn’t get better. Remember that the “prison” only existed because Hamas took power and declared war on Israel. Before that the borders were open. There was no reason why the situation in Gaza could not have improved, except Hamas.
You are using anti-temporal logic. You are blaming Israel’s reaction to X for the the event X taking place. Hamas did not declare war on Israel because Israel closed all borders. Israel closed all borders because Hamas declared war on Israel (and the PA).
“And i’m sure many of you have seen the picture of the Israeli soldiers posing for photos over the body of a dead palestinian.”
No, I haven’t. And while I read many major news sites, I do not look for such pictures specifically. Where are they?
When I google for the phrase, I find lots of articles referring to such pictures (but never showing them), many many pictures of Hamas people posing with weapons standing among children, condemning Jews and promising them death and torture, and a few anti-Semitic accusations like the idea that a picture showing a dead Arab represents “Israeli solder intentionally shooting Arab civilian”.
Can anybody here point to a war with a lower civilian casualty rate (compared to fighters)?
(In that war, does one side use human shields?)
http://www.geocities.com/hopesite1/images/IsraeliTrophy1.jpg
Eight whole Jews died. How will the world ever recover from this travesty? Poor, poor Jews.
I am sick of the Jews and their cries of “pity me, I’m the victim”. How is it that Israel is the victim, when the weapons and money are on their side, and the deaths are on the Palestinian side?
Tariq Nelson, I noticed that you are silent on the blacks that killed Eve Carson at UNC. Do you not have anything to say when your fellow BLACKS kill people?? Until you condemn a black NO ONE will take your biased Zionist-controlled rants seriously
Charles
If Allah’s words won’t convince you, then what effect can mine have?
The consistent attempt to separate and divide Muslims along racial lines for the purposes of sloganeering and hard-feelings, and not for the purposes of improvement and focus (like the good work that MANA is doing) is pure jahiliyah. Eloquence cannot cover its ugly tracks.
wallahualam
[...] Comments amad on Certainly NOT “Heroic…Palestine 4 Ever on Certainly NOT “Heroic…kashifn on Certainly NOT “Heroic…Andrew Brehm on Certainly NOT “Heroic…Andrew [...]
Well said Andrew. Got nothing else to say…. Might add a bit later, in reply to your future responses.
“Palesting 4 ever” that comment about Eve Carson is one of the stupidest comments i’ve seen. What on earth does Eve Carson have to do with anything discussed in this post?
Kashfin,
I concur.
The most popular show in israel is the source of the new HBO series “In Treatment”, which deals with a psychiatrist helping emotionally distraught patients. In the popular Israeli show one part deals with the traumatic effect (guilt) upon an Israeli soldier because he accidently killed civilians while hunting terrorists in the West Bank. In the American version, it’s a U.S. Airforce officer who accidentally bombed a Madrassah and is riddled with guilt.
BY CONTRAST, can you imagine a Hamas or Hezbollah or Al Aqsa Bridage terrorists WORRIED about this? Don’t be absurd! On the contrary–these people have been ideologically primed to kill civilians, including children, and they intend to kill civilians, including children. They CELEBRATE killing civilians, including children. And the Arab “street” in Gaza celebrates as well.
There, my Muslim and non-Muslim friends, is the difference.
But in the real world, Israelis celebrate with their trophies (the murdered Palestinians):
http://www.geocities.com/hopesite1/images/IsraeliTrophy1.jpg
There my friends, who don’t depend on TV shows to understand reality, is the difference between how good Israel is at propaganda, and what the truth is of Israeli apartheid (as Desmond Tutu explains in plain language) that causes terrorism
P.S. Of course Desmond Tutu is now an anti-semite. Guardian, the newspaper, is anti-semitic. I am an anti-semite, and heck, even this keypad I am using is anti-semitic.
Amad thinks that the tv show is clever propaganda–I guess he means for the outside world. But if Israeli society was not discomfitted by civilian deaths caused in the retailiations they engage in against those who intentionally target civilians, the tv show would not be popular. Period. Unless, Amad, you think the Israelis are cleverly propagandizing themselves. And even if that is the case, would not the effect be humanizing?
Bad things happen in war, and the geocities picture is upsetting. But it is not USUAL, nor can you use it to CLAIM it is usual, Amad, in the face of the popularity of a tv show in Israel which a soldier is tortured by guilt over accidentally killing civilians in the West Bank while hunting terrorists. In the Israel you imagine, this would be a comedy, yes?
Meanwhile, that any Hamas, Hezbollah or Al Aqsa Brigade terrorist would be tortured by guilt over killing civilians (even children) is of course ridiculous–they are trained to do it, they do it intentionally, and they and many ordinary Palestinians CELEBRATED it last week, and that is Tariq’s horrified point.
As for Gaza, I repeat, what Michael Walzer has written:
When terrorists intentionally shoo hundreds of rockets at enemy civilians, while hiding among their own civilians and using them as human shields, the responsibility for what occurs from the counterfire lies with the terrorists–AND ONLY WITH THEM. They–and ONLY THEY–are responsible for the casualties among the civilians whom they intentionally hide among while shooting rockets at civilians.
I’d like to know what you would do, Art Eikstein, if you and your family were caged in the most squalid and inhumane conditions, as part of the ILLEGAL collective punishment experiment being conducted by the terrorist state of Israel. I don’t think you’d be worrying about images, propaganda, and TV shows. Those are luxuries which the inflicted, oppressed and hopeless people of Gaza cannot afford to think about.
So, damn Michael Walzer and damn his lies. Until he goes to Gaza and lives a day with the people under those oppressive conditions, he doesn’t know crap, and neither do those who parrot his ignorant rants. The BS about human shields is a convenient excuse for the war-crimes that Israel is documented to have been and continue to be committing. Unless of course all those reports are written by anti-semites who hate poor Israel.
But decent human beings continue to write about Israel’s war-crimes, and I know it pains you that the terrorism you support isn’t going unnoticed. So, I didn’t write the following report, neither did any Muslim or Arab. All these organizations collectively have no reason to lie about the wretched conditions that Israelis have forced upon these human beings. Of course you and your LOBBY foot-soldier friends will ignore it, just like you ignored Desmond Tutu, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate.
Gaza situation worse than any time in 40 years
Art,
The “while hiding among their own civilians” doesnt work and never has. Israel requires it’s men, from 18 to their 40s, to serve in the IDF. Hence the entire male population of Israel, minus some religious students, are combatants.
Effectively this means that the IDF is also “hiding among itse civilians”.
That old cannard never flew the first time.
If you can justify attacks against terrorists that happen to kill civilians around them then using the same logic attacks that target Israeli men (as the vast majority of them are combatants and legitimate targets) that also kill civilians can be justified in the same way.
So, to paraprahse Michael Walzer:
“The the IDF kills hundreds of Palestinians, when all Israeli men are required to be a part of the IDF, the responsibility of what occurs from the lashback lies with the men of the IDF, AND ONLY WITH THEM. They- and the politicians that require all Israeli men to join the IDF, are responsible for the casualties among the civilians because this requirement of Israeli men means there is almost no place in Israel where there is not a legitimate target”.
I find precious little difference between targeting civilians, as Hamas and Hizb’Allah do, and the callous uncaring disregard of Israeli troops when considering Palestinian civilians.
The perfect example to prove that the Israelis do not care about civilian deaths is the 1,000 pound bomb they dropped on an apartment complex in Gaza a couple of years back. It was in the middle of the night, the apartment complex was filled with women and children and the choice was made to drop the bomb in the middle of the night when everyone was sleeping knowing perfectly well that civilians would die. As they Israelis knew, many women and chldren were killed in this attack.
So no, the Israelis dont target civilians, but they just dont care a lot about it either. It is the same reason why they dropped some 1 million bomblets on Southern Lebanon the last two days of the recent war against Hizb’Allah. Some 40 men women and children have been killed by them.
Sorry if I dont get all worked up about Israeli soldiers feeling guilt over killing innocents in a TV show. If Israelis were really interested in “guilt” over the issue they might try to prosecute those who have done so.
A couple of thousand dead civilians and only a couple Israeli soldiers given any sentence at all, including the one guy who knowingly emtpied an entire clip into a little school girl to “confirm the kill”.
So sorry if I throw out your proof an Israeli conciousness about killing civilians because you site a TV show.
Give me several dozen prosecutions and life sentences of the most flagrant murders amoungst the couple of thousand dead Palestinian civilians then I’ll believe you.
The DIFFERENCE between you and I is that you seem to think the IDF is better than Hamas, Hamas thinks they are better than the IDF.
I think they are both scumbags.
1. An Israeli television show which depicts the killing of Palestinian civilians as a terrible guilty-inducing trauma tells you a lot about a society. So do statements from Hamas celebrating the murder of teenagers studying the bible, and images of Palestinians celebrating the same. That tells you a lot about a society as well. It’s a legitimate point.
2. The fact is that Hamas and similar organizations kill any Jew they can find. They intentionally attack civilians. Were the 30 old people celebrating a religious holiday in the Passover Massacre at Netanya in March 2002 likely to be soldiers? Two-thirds of the Israelis killed during the Second Intifada were women and children. Is Abu Sinan aware of the quite different proportion of women and children casualties among the Palestinians for the same period?
3. If one wants to argue that the entire population is a legitimate target because it produces soldiers, as Abu Sinan is arguing re Israel, then the Gazans are in no position to argue about the “collective punishment” they get–though Abu Sinan simultaneously argues that position as well.
4. In any case, I’m not sure that Abu Sinan wants to follow through with the entire-population-produces-soldiers argument, though, because if the Israelis stringently applied that principle, then Gaza would no longer exist. In fact, however, the population of Gaza has increased by 140,000 since 2003. The standard of living in Gaza and the West Bank is poor in comparison to Israel or any western society. But it is nevertheless higher than Egypt’s, and so is the level of education, and the infant mortality level is better than both Egypt’s and Jordan’s. Egyptians were shocked at Palestinian wealth last month–and promptly raised their prices 400% when the Palestinians came across the border.
5. The reason the security fence exists is not out of sadism, but because of legitimate security concerns: read the Hamas Charter, or the Hamas govt celebrating the murder of teenagers last week.
6. In any case, to argue that the entire population is a legitimate target because it produces soldiers is different from arguing, far more narrowly, that terrorists who specifically hide in apartment buildings in order to use civilians in that apartment building as human shields so that they (the terrorists) can pursue their attacks on civilians are themselves the people morally responsible for what then occurs.
Here is an example of the KIND of strategy Hamas employs (though this happens to be Hezbollah):
30 July 2006
In a letter to the editor of the Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel a Lebanese Shia explains how after Israel’s withdrawal from South Lebanon, Hezbollah stored rockets in bunkers in his town and built a school and residence over it.
I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians.
These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.
Dr. Mounir Herzallah
Berlin-Wedding
That’s the kind of strategy Walzer was specifically talking about, Abu Sinan.
6. Finally, I doubt that Abu Sinan, who seems a reasonable guy, would want to argue that if Hamas stopped firing hundreds of rockets a month at Israeli civilians, then the Israelis would STILL be attacking Gaza militarily simply because they love to kill Palestinians. Does he really believe that?
Keep ignoring the facts, Art. Keep ignoring the facts. The damn rocket (jokes they are) keep going off because your terrorist boys there have caged a whole nation on a piece of land and shut off supplies of necessities to them. What do you want them to do? Just wither away and die? You still haven’t told me what YOU would do if you are caged in your own house. Just die and let your family die out of the goodness of your heart? And if you threw something out of your house at those who are laying the siege, should we blame you for starting hostilities. Do you have a BRAIN to think for yourself with?
The responsibility STARTS and LIES with the occupiers because they are in the position of AUTHORITY. Do you understand basic principles of the Conventions of occupation?
Also, it should have become obvious that the Zionist supporters the right-wingers have never apologized for nor condemned the civilian killings. One has to admit that they are principled in this stand for terrorism (see what Finkelstein has to say). They ALWAYS justify it, regardless of how brutal and how indiscriminate. Yet, they keep demanding that Muslims condemn every little incident from our side. So, the people who TRULY condemn terrorism are Muslims, and the supporters of terrorism are the zio-cons. That is why peace talks are non-starters, because these zio-cons don’t condemn their own terrorism, while continuing to breach all accords (like on the <a href=”http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080310.ISRAEL10/TPStory/TPInternational/Africa/” settlement issues)
P.S. As you have start resorting to cutting and pasting irrelevant stuff, it is obvious that you have no arguments left, except to repeat not-starter and ludicrous canards, as Abu Sinan correctly calls it..
The link that got messed up was to the Israeli announcement to expand “settlements” or lets say further steal and encroach occupied territories, in clear contradiction to all the promises ever made. VERY PRINCIPLED indeed.
True face of Israel
I’ve made my points, with specifics. There’s no point saying more.
If people want to blame someone ELSE other than the terrorists and their intentional tactics when terrorists intentionally hide among civiians and intentionally shoot rockets at other civilians and there is–finally–a retailiation–I can’t help them morally.
Amad doesn’t want to listen since he sees a demonic Israel. But if Israel was really demonic, genocidal or Nazi, then you would have a popular culture that celebrates destruction, and laughs at killing civilians and celebrates it, and Gaza would have been wiped out after sending for a year 2,300 rockets in two years into a civilian town within the 1967 borders. (A Nazi-like culture that celebrates destruction and laughs at killing civilians and celebrates it? Hmm…who does THAT sound like?)
Those rockets were the response to Israeli withdrawal, and if that is the response, why should the Israelis withdraw from anywhere again? I have a very liberal friend who argued with me for years, but said if the Israelis withdrew from Gaza and the Palestinian response was something like this, he would stop asking the Israelis to withdraw from anything. He has now stopped asking the Israelis to withdraw from anything.
If I were caged up in my own house I don’t think I’d start shooting old people and children, Amad. Turning Palestinian culture into a death-cult has not helped their cause. Intentionally killing civilians in the name of Islam, and celebrating and laughing about it, has gravely harmed the name both of Palestine and of Islam. That is Tariq Nelson’s original point, and it is a good one.
When African-Americans were caged up in their own house in hideous unfairness and hideous conditions they resorted not to mass murder but to mass peaceful demonstrations. And one sees the good result now (not perfect, but hugely improved; I live in an integrated neighborhood in Maryland, myself). But then, African-Americans were predominantly Christians, and hence not bound up in a Middle Eastern honor-culture that requires violence in the name of honor for every insult.
Amad will not accept what I now say: but the Palestinians could have had their own state 10 years ago. They rejected both Camp David and the much better deal at Doha. That is because ultimately they do not want a two-state solution, they want to to destroy Israel, and drive the Jews into the sea. Then they complain when the Israelis defend themselves. That’s the way I see it.
I’m sure Amad will respond. But I’ve made my point and have no desire to get into a spitting match. Goodbye, folks.
Telling letters from two women on different sides of the conflict.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7270785.stm
Did the Israelis care when Palestinians formed a human chain across Gaza?
Israel will continue to kill Palestinians because that is what occupiers do to the occupied, it is a historical fact.
Unlike Art or others here I will not justify the deaths of innocents.
Israeli needs to leave the West Bank and Gaza, full stop.
I truly feel for the Palestinian people. However, as a muslim, I am appalled by their leadership.
A sustained non-violence movement would have effectively given the Palestinians the upper-hand morally in this conflict.
I predicted that by now the Palestinians would have gotten that point. I underestimated the power of culture and overestimated logic.
The AfricanAmerican community in the South and its Jewish and white supporters knew that violence would provide national support for their cause.
In this day in age, I think non-violence is the way to go unless the opposition is determined to exterminate a people.
I hope the Palestinians begin a non-violence movement because their are plenty of Jews and Christians who would be willing to fight for a Palestinian state alongside Israel.
Salaam
I really doubt that many Muslims have taken a close look at the ideology of the organization. If we stand silent, we are basically condoning the exploitation of our religion in the name of some heinous acts. I remember back in the 90s, most Muslims were in denial. We refused to believe that suicide bombings could be linked to Islam. All of us said, “That is not Islam!” While we denied, we failed to confront this issue head on and preempt any other nationalist movement from using this as an ideological tool. Now, there are Muslims who condone such actions. We should all take a stand and put pressure on them to condemn it. Our condemnations should not be limited to when Muslims attack non-Muslims.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080311/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AryzMOmi9eDqOQ9SDvNGN1ys0NUE
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080311/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_explosion;_ylt=An_dSvjumH4eF2nyTUCP3yWs0NUE
I mean, come on, what do we have to say about the justificaitons for hiraba? What are they trying to accomplish with this insanity?
Many scholars compare what’s going on in Palestine to South Africa. In fact, we can consider West Bank and Ghana similar to Bantustans, supposedly autonomous regions that are completely cut off from the rest of the world and pretty much at the mercy of Israel. During the desperate conditions of apartheid, Nelson Mandela didn’t use religion to justify atrocities against the white Afrikaaners. I’m proud to say that Nelson Mandela is my hero and an example of perserverence and resistance.
On another note, We can’t even compare the civil rights movement and the militant groups that developed during that period to Hamas. NOI, Black Panthers, and other militant Black groups didn’t use religion to justify atrocities against whites.
Margari
The difference between the African-Americans and the Palestinians is that the African-Americans do not have a revenge at all costs “honor” culture. Their culture does not require one to get revenge in the family name no matter what. African-American culture is/was more based in forgiveness of one’s enemies and restraint
During my college days, I tried to make a connection between white South Africans and Israel and comparing Apartheid to Israeli occupation. Unfortunately, I came up short and the argument seemed very difficult to make. As I have become wiser, I see that the comparisions are superficial at best.
Salaam
Margari,
The struggle in South Africa didnt have religion as an aspect to it, the situation in Palestine is not the same. As to the ANC, at least some segments certainly used tactics that would be considered terrorism if they were used by Palestinians today.
The ANC set off bombs in cafes, in public streets and this is what led it to be classified as a terrorist organisation. Dozens and dozens of civilians died in these attacks.
What is and isnt terrorism now at days depends solely on where you come from, your religion, and whose “side” you are on.
Having said that, I completely disagree with Hamas’ attempt to use a religious justification for these attacks.
If they enacted a completely non violent form of resistance they’d have their own state, on their own terms, in a space of 10 years. Israel couldnt stand the pressure from the entire world. This is exactly why Israeli often acts purposely to scuttle any moves towards peace. Peace is not in the interest of those Israelis who do not want to give up the West Bank and Gaza.
I guess Jimmy Carter and Desmond Tutu didn’t have much of a problem drawing a parallel between the apartheid days of South Africa and the situation in Palestine.
Also, religion is not the driver here for most Palestinians. Its simply territorial… getting their land back or to live freely in the land that they “have”. The parallel between oppression and violent reaction is unquestionable. It has happened nearly in every occupation or oppression. What the motivations used are not important (be it color, religion, etc), there is a common thread that runs through them. Of course the islamophobes want to use this as an opportunity to condemn all Islam. And we have to stop that, but at the same time we cannot let the victims of the occupation become the aggressors. That is the height of injustice, especially coming from their own Muslim brethren.
The Link Between Islam & Suicide Attacks (or is there?)
I agree Amad, if religion was thd driving factor you wouldnt have Christian Palestinians playing such large roles in the struggle. Edward Said, and George Habbash, founder of the PFLP.
National determination is the basis of this struggle.
Abu Sinan,
That’t the point I’m making. South Africa was just as desperate and terrible, but the religious component never really came into the picture.
But there have been other, resistance movements that have had religious aspects to it. This was particularly the case in anti-colonial movements during the late 19th and early 20th century. The Mahdist movement in Sudan against the Turko-Egyptian government had a similar millenarian tone as some of the stuff I read in Hamas. I’ve also studied other millenarian movements in Africa. Some people have pointed out that the Southern Sudanese Christians also have a millenarian tone which shapes how they see the conflict between the NOrth and South. The thing is, they see their struggle as part of the show down between forces of good and forces of evil.
ANC was considered a terrorist organization by the South AFrican government, US and UK. Their primary form of resistance was sabotage of government facilities. But I don’t think they near reached the scale of Palestinian terrorist attacks. Nor did they have a religious sanctioning from some twisted religious leaders.
Tariq and Margari,
Read this http://www.antiwar.com/avnery/?articleid=12495 and maybe you’ll learn something.
West African Philly,
So, basically what are you trying to say? We’re ignorant? I find that laughable, but whatever. Basically, what you’re implying is that I’d support atrocities against civilians if I knew the real story. That line of thinking is what we’re combatting.
I think it is travesty to celebrate the murder of seminary students or any civilians. What’s happening in Gaza right now and what has happened to the Palestinian people is tragic. I support Palestinian self determination. But I take a stand against any ideology that justifies murder and terror in the name of Islam.
Yes, Margari, you and Tariq are ignorant FOOLS.
You can say ALL you want about thinking that it is a travesty to celebrate the murder of seminary students.
Truth is that YOU and that FOOL Tariq have no idea what the Palestinians are going through and are NOT experiencing the abuse and crime that they are subjected to.
It’s easy when you are so far removed and live conformtable lives to stand in your high horses and judge the people who are suffering.
As the poet W.H. Auden pointed out:
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.
West African in Philly shows that Margari and Tariq are the heretics
In Islam, you can blow up maim and kill babies and it is perfectly OK. If you disagree, then you are a FOOL
Thanks West African
West African in Philly -
Where in West Africa are you from?
Your line of reasoning seems to be really extreme.
Do you support the oppression of Black Africans in Mauritania by the Berbers?
Salaam
“Palestine 4 Ever” - you are a sick individual.
How can you blame Israel for the craziness that comes out of your culture?
How can you blame Israel when Palestinians shoot their rockets from the middle of civilian populations, hoping for civilian deaths that they can flaunt to the world?
They can’t defeat Israel so they lie and claim victim status while trying to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.
Is palestine mentioned in your koran? How about Israel? Oppressors? Are you sure?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/84
Palestinians: the only people to suffer a so-called “genocide” while breeding like rabbits, with some of the best medical care in the world thanks to the Jews of Israel.
They brainwash their children.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SUFynQlbqIg
Your logic fails me and the results of your logic makes me sick. There is no honor in islam.
This.Is.Islam:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2005.htm
Feeling peaceful yet?
West African Philly,
You’re saying that while you live comfortably in America enjoying some freedoms when in other places they would have placed you under arrest for spouting off the way you do. Your name calling exposes your melt down of reason and intellect. While you’ll likely remain on some no fly list for your extremist tendencies, I’ll probably do more in my life to help Palestinians and other muslims suffering. You’re just full of hot air. And bro, it stinks.
“Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.”
So you called it for what it is. Evil actions. We’re supposed to forbid the wrong and command the right, even if it is against our family and our own community. That’s where you’re wrong. You forget the concept of moral high ground. We have an Islamic system of ethics, and you’re clearly not interested in it. This above quote really violates Islam. It continues to cycle of evil and oppression. You can’t even come up with a reasonable proof for your argument. Attacks on civilians, destruction of property, and brigandage violates shariah.
Well said Margari, Just like to say I don’t think you’re a fool
You’re probably one of the most intelligent people I”ve read on the blogosphere about matters of history. Very impressive
Margari,
I may be full of hot air but not as much as you and Tariq. I am not arrogant enough to try to LECTURE the palestinians when I don’t have to go through the suffering and cruel punishment that they are subjected to.
And yeah, I get ticked when I see some of you who, by the Grace of Allah, were fortunate enough not to have to go through what the Palestinians are going through, try to lecture them. It’s easy to run your big mouth when you are not in their shoes.
There is a fool here who posted that the Israelis don’t celebrate when Palestinians are killed. Sure. Why should they?
It is NOT them (the Israelis) that are getting killed DAILY.
It is NOT them whose lands are getting stolen from them.
It is NOT them who are getting starved and humiliated.
I bet that fool who made that stupid comment would be celebrating too if he had happened to be born a Gazan, being starved right now and having his relatives killed.
I can’t do much for the Palestinians but offer prayers for them, feel sympathy for them and cry for them. And no, you won’t see me bashing them like you and Tariq are doing.
If that makes me full of “stinking” hot air as you said, then I gladly accept this.
As the poet W.H. Auden pointed out:
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.
I am very afraid when I see that people like “West African in Philly” are walking the streets of a major US metropolis and believe that it is honorable to kill children. Tariq PLEASE report this guy’s IP address so that the police can watch this psycho
I wonder if West African in Philly and others find this act “heroic”:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080313/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
Unfortunately, you’ll never find many Muslims bringing light to the plight of Iraqi Christians, since they are supposedly “collaborators to the occupation”. These people never hurt a single Muslim yet they are punished because they are Christian, yet Muslims in the West delude themselves into a victimization mentality.
I would like to see fellow Muslims come out in the open and condemn this disgusting crime. Tariq, wh