Kalimaat has an excellent article on the naivete displayed by converts when they go overseas to get married with romantic visions of “one Ummah” dancing in their heads.
I really despise this lie that we are simply all one Ummah and that our sole identity is Islam. It’s a myth being perpetrated by some Western Muslims and all Islamists. Muslims in the West like to evoke it when it comes to issues like Palestine or gatherings in Islamic events. These are meaningless empty words with no substance, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The Islamists like to shout about it in order to unify us under one ideology that only serves their political aims. I believe God has created us to be different; we are a product of our cultures and upbringing. We can be unified under the principles of Islam but that is not the be all and end all of our identity. It does not mean we become homogenous and adopt or confine to one culture or way of behaving. Faith is an act of worship and it is a personal and private matter first and foremost, it is not sufficient enough to create marriage, friendship or bridge the massive cultural gap.
I am at a point now where I admittedly get irked when I hear of a brother (or sister) running off overseas to get married because I know that more than likely someone has fed them a bunch of egalitarian fantasies that these overseas marriages are perfect. This type of dishonesty (or hiding the whole truth) is pervasive and extends to more than just ’selling’ a prospective bride to an unsuspecting young male convert (or middle aged female convert) with that prized US Citizenship.
That for another day.
Filed under: The Culture of Denial and Pretense
While I agree that there can be serious problems with cross cultural marriages (meaning people from different continents, who speak different languages), that article was full of stereotypes, unsubstantiated claims about what happens in most of these marriages, antiquated notions of race and class, unverifiable anecdotal evidence and showed a general ignorance of the nuance and complexity of human relations.
I mean it’s one thing to find yourself in agreement with the author’s worldview (no matter how unreconstructed), but an excellent article? I don’t think so, akh.
@ Ilyas
Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, but what the author said is generally what I have found to be the case in MANY of these overseas marriages. If dozens of people have been mugged in a certain neighborhood I am going to stop believing that it is safe no matter how many “salesmen” try to tell me the opposite.
My main point is that people sell naive converts a “bill of goods” when it comes to these marriages (and other things)
We just need to stop the crap and start telling people the whole truth instead of peddling utopian fantasies
As-Salaamu ‘Alaikum,
Without having read the entire article but just the blurb above, let’s not let those who go into these marriages totally off the hook. People often go into bad marriages and get hooked into schemes, cons and anything else due to deep personal reasons that are perhaps are of greater cause for them to be susceptible to making bad decisions than getting ‘inspired’ by fiery imams or pushy Muslims, just like only a certain type of person will be led ‘down the rosy path’ to committing acts of terror no matter what someone says.
Many have gone into a marriages that failed not due to the deen or anyone’s advice and that weren’t due to marriage to a ‘foreigner’. Let me say that I have also seen many of the types of failures alluded to (i.e. green card marriages and the like) and have advised against them as well. But I know for a fact many of the sisters or brothers getting into them have other issues for example having the habit of putting on blinders or refusing to see what everyone else can because one is needy or immature.
In other words brother, NOBODY can force you into a bad marriage or into believing that marriage PERIOD will always be blissful in any case not to mention when marrying someone totally unfamiliar or distant from one’s own culture or a stranger, unless there is something else going on with you. I don’t mean it is always a deep psych or emotional issue. It could be lack of experience and not know what to ask or what you really want yet.
I bristle when I hear people DOWNPLAYING the FACT that as MUSLIMS we should be upon a common set of beliefs and principles and that we must attempt to apply the sunnah DESPITE our different social circumstances. That is not the same as saying we will all be the same or that we all are however we SHOULD be a united ummah and Muslims based on common principles.
If the author despises that statement that we are “one ummah and our sole identity Islam” as a ‘lie’ then I equally despise the excusing evil, erroneous, destructive, immoral, and ignorant social or personal practices as ‘culture’ and expressions of diversity in an attempt to cover up the fact that Muhammad (saaws) did in fact come to perfect the BEST of moral character ACROSS HUMANITY. The only people however who would do so will be the true adherents to his way and a deep commitment to that and a great trust and belief in Allah. I have often found the statement made in that article to be a subtle attack upon the principle of adherence to the sunnah of Muhammad (saaws).
Perhaps “We should be an Ummah as characterized by Allah and His Messenger and Islam should be the foundation of our identities!” be a more accurate statement.
Everyone is trying to run game we just have to be wise see through it, and not be bitten from the same hole twice…
Abu Abdillah
If you read the article you will realise that the theme is not focused on identity considerations, but it is primarily concerned with honesty and how others truly perceive other cultures and groups.
The focus should be on the abnormal pattern of converts who are going half way across the world to marry complete strangers under the guise of the argument we are all “just Muslims”. Its not an attack on the beliefs and principles of Muslim unity. So let us talk about the ISSUES and not get side tracked about the peripherals.
I agree with the article. There are some exceptions with individuals that speak the same language and identify strongly with the culture and customs of their parents homeland.
Ive seen that many, not all, of these marriages do work out well.
Ive also heard of convert brothers who leave their wives, some of whom they met and converted through (not converted for, these brothers admired the characters of these muslim women and were then inspired to convert, though it is likely they may not have had the opportunity to convert had they not met them).
These brothers then leave their wives, when they decide, wait a minute when we first met, you werent such a great Muslim and now Ive reached pinnacles of religion that you dont have (despite the fact that they converted because of these women), i need to find myself a more pious wife.
They then decide they absolutely must go overseas alone
to study with sheikh who decides, yes they should marry someone else who happens to be another of the sheikh’s students.
this is happening alot. it is very sad and injust. and doesnt turn out well for anyone.
I do agree that there is too much idealism sometimes in Muslim circles that the mere fact that we are Muslim will be enough to overcome cultural considerations and factors.
I am totally against cross-cultural (note: NOT interracial) marriages.
Uh…Tariq aren’t you married to an Arab woman? I’m not trying to disrespect but it is a question…
Salaam ‘Alaikum
It would be nice to hear something beyond the anecdotal. How many people are really running off overseas to marry strangers? If five people do it in one community that serves 2000 Muslims, we think it’s a lot, but it’s not really. We say, “I hear, I see, I’ve been told…” but what meaning does this have beyond our personal experiences? Valid though they are they can’t be put against 6 million people. I’ve personally only seen one or two brothers “go to Morocco,” yet in some cities, that is the major issue of the day. So how about in the Quad Cities community, or Seattle’s community? I’ve not heard of many “naive White convert women” running off to a foreign country, but I’ve seen with my own eyes that immigrant men are the ones asking — not their own born-in-America brothers. And can we get beyond the Arab bashing please? Is that the quickest way to establish our creds?
//I am totally against cross-cultural (note: NOT interracial) marriages.//
Charming. Just another point for us to set ourselves against one another.
Umm Zaid
In the UK it is a growing trend for black convert brothers to travel abroad for marriage. I dont know how prevalent this is in America. I wasnt referring to white female converts, just white females.
Pointing out cultural differences whether negative or positive does not constitute bashing.
Assalamu alaikum, perhaps I’m just isolated from the community, or I’ve just not seen this going on, but this “going overseas to get married” phenomenon I’ve not seen with my own eyes/not actually personally known of anyone doing this. While it may be naive to go off and get married to someone you don’t even know, I also don’t like the generalization of “Arabs don’t respect black people”, etc., etc., it’s like we can generalize all we want about “Arabs”, but we get upset when Arabs say “descendants of slaves can’t be respected” or “European/Western women are promiscuous and thus aren’t respectable”, etc. When is it OK for us to generalize about Arabs, yet act all incredulous when it’s done to “us” as in, Western/European/American?
Perhaps many Arabs don’t respect black people, perhaps they see it as a “step down”, but perhaps many don’t.
Umm Zaid’s point about “Arab-bashing” hit home with me, though…
Assalamu alaikum btw, I’m also in a cross-cultural marriage, and I’ve seen some comments (including the initial article), seeming to suggest that cross-cultural marriages are always, or almost always, bad, are only “to get a green card” or because of some idealized notion of “finding the perfect Muslim spouse”. I’m sensing that there’s a lot of hostility to cross-cultural marriages, from an implied negativity all the way up to “I’m against cross cultural marriages”. The question is, why? And I’m not talking about the naive people who marry strangers (how common is this anyway, as Umm Zaid pointed out again?)
Are we against “stranger marriages”, the cross-cultural marriages also thrown in there, or, against cross-cultural marriages in general.
I know I’m probably not making any sense, but I’m just tired of this “all arabs are bad” “all Muslim men are bad who marry cross-culturally, read American Muslim men, and especially, African-American Muslim men”, “white American women who marry cross culturally are naive and just setting themselves up for failure ’cause he only wants a green card anyway”, and on and on and on, is this just a “community problem” or is it our own individual insecurities being manifest as a “community problem”.
I’m just tired of the negativity and it imho isn ot any of my business who someone chooses to marry and why. Counsel those who’ve made bad decisions, but don’t lump all cross-cultural marriages into one “they’re all bad” box. Mine isn’t, Alhamdulillah.
Asalaamu alaikum,
In this part of the US (Georgia), it’s not a big phenomenon. Most American Muslims marry other American Muslims whether if they are of the same race or not. Of course, there’s no foolproof solution. Some people, despite the warnings, will continue to enter into certain situations with blinders on whether if they are being pushed by Muslims or not. One sister and I are trying to convince a new convert not to jump into another marriage quickly (which is working to no avail cuz she’s in love).
And honestly, there are a LOT of Arabs who are not racist. I’ve even had Arabs go out of their way not to say/do something offensive to me because I’m Black and because they know that this stereotype of the racist Arab is out there. And plenty of White Muslim sisters that I know are hip to the game and will not get played by anyone. We’re all adults so caution is always necessary but not all cross cultural marriages are attempts to see if the grass is greener on the other side.
[...] 4, 2008 at 10:53 pm (Islam, Marriage Issues, Thoughts) Assalamu alaikum, Tariq Nelson and Kalimaat both have interesting posts regarding cross-cultural marriages. I commented on Tariq [...]
Not all Arabs are disrespectful or racist ofcourse, that is not the issue, however it is against the cultural norms of the majority of Arabic society to marry a black person or for a young man to marry a middle aged woman, that cannot be denied or ignored.
The Culture of Denial
The general pattern throughout the Arab world is that it would be perceived as:
1) very unusual and
2) exceptional
for a young arab (non-black) woman to marry a BLACK, non arab man UNLESS there were extenuating circumstances (e.g. money/passport issues) at play.
Once again if we use Kaalimat’s example, imagine for just a moment the following scenario- Young working, pious black brothers straight from Senegal or Ghana (Not Western Ghanains or Senegalese) going off to Egypt or Morocco and saying ‘We’re all Muslims, hook me up with your daughter’. How on Almighty God’s earth do you think 99.9% of those Egyptian or Moroccan families would perceive things and how would they react? Please, think about it honestly and objectively.
OK,ok I know there’s those of of us who would like to focus on the 0.01% of Good hearted families who would overlook colour and see acclaimed piety.Nevertheless, even the 0.01% families would be doing something strange, as they are marrying their daughters to not only a complete stranger, they’re marrying their daughter to a foreigner from a different culture.
We are living in cloud cuckoo land if we think that it is a normal practice (i.e usual) for an arab family to marry their daughter to somebody who comes from the ‘black people’, without good reason. This an exceptional practice. It does happen but it is rare. This is UNDENIABLE (i.e we can’t deny this is a fact, without ourselves being in denial).
Yes, I accept there may be a few RARE exceptions here and there but this doesn’t mean we try to focus on these exceptions as a way to pretend racism, discrimination and distinctions don’t exist. Please don’t let us start posting examples of how Ghanain Kwame went to Egypt and mashallah he married an Egyptian princess! I’m sure we can all find examples like this! These examples can’t and shouldn’t hide the reality!
It is particularly annoying when people make comments like I know lots of Arabs and they’re not racists. Not wanting your daughter to marry a stranger from a foreign land is not necessarily racism. To be honest it’s UNDERSTANDABLE. But what is not understandable is when people try to pretend that its normal to go abroad and marry someone from a completely different culture, race and society and ‘love transcends all’.
The biggest problem I have with many of our blog commentators is that they completely misconstrue the articles that seek to add some honesty about our differences into the discourse. They always attempt to go off into a side discussion. It’s annoying!!!!
It’s usually the same thing they say about the author of a thought provoking article: ‘This person is trying to divide the Ummah’. How can you divide the already divided any further. The author is usually stating that we are already didvided, so let us come together and have a discussion about our differences, in order to resolve our differences.
Every time someone tries to be HONEST that racism or any other issue really exists, someone gets defensive. Let’s look at the issues with a cool head and not try to avoid the issues by going off on a tangent.
Nobody is saying that Arabs, East Africans, Desis, Asians or any other communities are all racists. That’s ridiculous to make such a sweeping comment. However, we have to accept that there is TOO much evidence to PROVE that their IS a concept of superiority and inferiority that pervades most cultures and sadly ‘Black’ people fall at the bottom.
Once we accept that within someone’s culture there is a concept of superiority and inferiority, we can then have an honest, mature dicussion about how our perceptions relate to our interaction in areas such as marriage.
This discussion is not honest but above all it is not factual. I lived in Morocco, Egypt and KSA. I lived in Fes and Marrakech and french speaking West African men marry Moroccan women all the time. What was so ignorant about the post is millions of Moroccans, Egyptians and Saudis are Black themselves. The gnawa culture in Morocco is an African culture.
If this discussion was honest you would warn new Muslim men from marrying in Morocco because many women practice magic, soothsaying, palm reading etc. The family and social units are crumbling. Alcohol and hashish smoking is rampant. Religious knowledge and practice is on the decline.
With all of their problems I met many good Muslims and see why men go marry from there and it will not stop anytime soon. The men and the women have their own reasons why they marry this way, ask them face to face instead of speaking for them.
With the divorce rates so high in western countries; are you really the right people to give advice?
@ joie
And we all know how perfect Moroccans are. I wish that ALL the convert men would go there and Somali and every other place except America to get married. All the answers are in getting married overseas
Assalamu alaikum, I realize that ther’s racism, etc., among many cultures, but my point is, we’ve been over this before… So now that we’ve discussed this for the 100th time, how do we get beyond the “discussing” part, and get to trying to figure out how to solve the problems? Is posting antoher article about brothers marrying overseas going to change because we’ve talked about it 51 times instead of 50 times?
I’m not saying we should all be in denial, I’m not saying we should pretend that problems don’t exist, but after a while it sound to me like “whatever the culture we’re talking about”-bashing and beating a dead horse. Because it inevitably goes from “people are doing something naive” to “oh the only want os for our passports” to “oh look how backward that culture is and those Muslims are”, and it goes from perhaps stating legitimate and real issues/grievances to just another excuse to bash outers’ cutlures in the name of “talking about reality”.
My thing is, OK, so we’ve beaten this horse to death, what do we do now? Is our continual discussion of this going to stop the next brother/sister from jumping on a plane and thinking they’re going to be marrying that “perfect Muslim” from that “perfect Muslim culture”?
If the answer is no, then imho, this isn’t about “trying to solve problems”, etc., it’s about venting, stereotyping, bashing, and talking, all in the name of “solving problems” or “not being in denial”.
Anyone who’s read this blog for any length of time, and other blogs that have talked about this as well, know all of the “problems” my question is, what are the solutions? Where do we go from here? What do we do now?
@ Ginny
You’ve made a really good point. I’m in complete agreement. Let’s start discussing where to go next.
Firstly, there needs to be greater information dissemination and acknowledgement of the issues at hand actually being potential ‘problems’. This is where the Tariq Nelson, Kaalimat, Umar Lee, Jamerican Muslimah type ‘bloggers’ come in.
Secondly, we need to start collecting as much ‘HONEST’, islamically sound (i.e not gossiping, scandalising etc) information from the individuals who actually know about and are affected by these issues. Perhaps, comments could involve more people like this. Too often the comments include people who try to say ‘No, this isn’t an issue, its all in your mind’.
Thirdly, once the information collection is done, we will be in a better position to equip ‘activists’ to GO out and do what is necessary depending on the issues. Activism might require research, writing books, lobbying, talking, acting, thinking, praying, building institutions, advising, warning, aiding and supporting, dialectical brainstorming etc. ‘Activism’ will vary.
In the instance of the whole ‘Morocco is the solution’ issue, the ‘activsm’ for me is gaining information that empowers me to go into my UK Black convert community better equipped to discuss (and thus perhaps resolve) this issue. Also, there is now a wealth of alternative information that will allow a person who is considering ‘going off to Morocco’ to have a very broad, holistic awareness of some of the issues at play.
My own personal view is that ‘he who feels it, knows it’. As someone who has been a victim of the cliches and stereotypes that are often alluded to in these blogs, I wish that I would have had the opportunity to have all this HONEST, thought provoking information at the time so I could have made ‘informed’ choices. But its Qadrullah.
@ Blue did you even read my post clearly? Re-read the part where I clearly stated some of their many problems. This type of post is tired and has been beat to death again and again. At the end of the day despite your complaints and snide remarks you did not change one thing. What is there really to discuss or learn from this topic? There is no next step; the men who want to travel to marry are not listening to anyone here. The solution is work on your own marriage and mind your business.
@ joie
I get it. Be silent and let the madness continue. Yep, that has worked so well
As Salamu Alaykum
From reading article of kaalimaat, I got the understanding of she is not against people marring out side of their race or culture, but she addressed issue of some convert Muslim man and women who married people from oversea that they don’t understand their language, culture, custom. I agree some of these converts and anyone who does this has fantasy idea which is unrealistic. Some of these people were not even date, or have any type of relationship with someone that they don’t have anything in comm., and doesn’t speak same language us them before Islam but when these man and women become Muslim, they get themselves into these type of situation.
Someone need to explain to these new brother and sister that choose wife or husband, it is same thing before you were Muslim. You have to married someone that you’re comparable with, that you have a lot in comm., attractive to, same level of education, which you can communicated effetely, and you look for whatever else that is important to you in Spouse. Marriage is marriage it two people living together sharing life, with all the problems life throw at you. Why do some of these marriages fail?
Image you’re in ship that you don’t know how to operated, and there is another person with you in the ship that you can’t communicate with. So you started having problem in middle of ocean. The waves are getting high and ship is moving side to side, you can’t do everything by yourself so you need the help of the person with you in this situation otherwise the ship will go down with both of you. Guess what you can’t communicated with person, because you don’t speak same language, and you can’t do everything by yourself the ship sink, and both of you went down in ship.
The ship is marriage, the person is spouse, ocean is life, and waves are problem in life. In this situation commutation doesn’t mean speaking same language, it means you’re not understanding each other
Salam alaikoum
For me, the going abroad to get married phenomenon is parallel to the “going back home to find a good girl” phenomenon for so-called “second and third generation” Muslims in France from north and west Africa. They marry these people from the village only to find out that in reality people usually have more in common with someone from their home culture who also grew up abroad, e.g. an Algerian who grew up in France whose family is from village A is generally going to have more in common with another French-born Algerian from village B across the country than someone from back home in village A. I am for intercultural marriage (I am on year six of an intercultural marriage myself) but I just wish I had known early on how hard it would be. Intercultural marriage is worth it if you are honest with yourself how hard it is going to be, and that is where I agree with you tariq- dancing off to Morocco with visions of a unified ummah isn’t enough to make a marriage work. Even with everything we had going for us (no language barrier, employment, didn’t have kids right away) it was still rough going. Intercultural marriage is not fun but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done and doesn’t have its rewards. Wa allahou alim.
I really don’t want to bash Arabs in the Middle EAst, but you should see how phases light up when they found out I’m American, as opposed to Sudanese or Ethiopian. And its not like America or its policies are that popular here in Egypt. But if I follow the illogic of of some people, all those marriage proposal that I get from taxi drivers, tour guides, and store shop owners are sincere. They look past the visa and see the real Muslimah inside.
I know a number of American women in stable marriages with Arab, African and South Asian men. But these men weren’t after their greencards and most of them had been in the states and were pretty acculturated. Some expat women are also happily married. I also know of women who have been used for green cards, abused, and even lost their children. The key is use common sense and don’t buy into some pipe dream.
Hee-hee, if that was the case, my Ivorien ex and still should be an item today. I didn’t meet him in the Ivory Coast. I met him the town square in Norcross, Georgia.
It seems that these people want to live on Fantasy Island. I liked that show. Mr. Roarke and Tattoo would send the Island visitors to their own paradise to make it their wishes become reality. If there were a such as such an island, ‘ l could imagine some of these people being on it.To pretend that we all desire the total package would be a lie, but in such an imperfect would, that is impossible to find.No matter how they are, there are type deficiencies in them. Their thoughts are unrealistic. There is no such thing as the perfect marriage or the perfect spouse. People can only can try to be the best that they can be.
Marriage is a 2nd job.There is no shortcuts in doing it, either the person wants to or not want to be married. The problem with some of these people is that they want want the incentives but they do not want to work for it.
It’s just unbelievable of naivety of some of these people. Do they really believe that there will be no trials and tribulations in their marriage because of the background of the person?If there is someone like that, I hope they will let me know about him.because God said that there will be such, no matter who it is.It’s just a matter of how the couple deals with it. No matter what country they go to, if they don’t get the pillars of marriage( on both sides), they will be reintroduced to the very thing they were trying to getting away from.
As-Salaamu ‘Alaikum
Kalimaat
I apologize if you took my comments personally or implying something negatively about you directly. I prefaced my comments with an acknowledgment of not having read the piece to indicate my two cents was not personal or directed at the author. Well I finally have read it and I largely agree with her. I stand by my earlier comment as well however as it is based on my experience. It is not unrelated to the topic because it is often an important underlying issue with some Muslims. I lived for about 17 years in two Muslim countries and traveled to several more. I have had friends burned in stranger marriages and several in bad cross-cultural marriages. I considered it myself but by the time I did, I knew that I would not merely be marrying a Muslim sister from ____ but her family and culture as well and knowing how my particular circumstances would impact upon that. I had several proposals and even a woman shout out in the middle of class if I would marry her. Definitely in my top 5 most embarrassing moments. I have made some dumb mistakes in my life but that was not one of them. In choosing a marital partner common sense goes a long way, as does life experience, education, awareness of self and surroundings, and knowledge of the deen. Most importantly is the mercy of Allah.