“Your children have no business going to the street for love. There’s no love there. The only thing out there is how to re-write and write your entrance exam to jail,”
He was recently in Baltimore. I think that his message is actually very good. Why does the media describe a message of education, responsibility and loving one’s children as “controversial”?
Filed under: Bad Culture | Tagged: Bill Cosby
Maybe because Bill speaks with a condescending tone to his audiences, yet he settled a case out of court for allegations of sexually assaulted a woman. I surely wouldn’t give a woman one cent in a court settlement if I knew 100% that I didn’t assault her sexually, especially being a married man.
I’d expect him to have a more humble tone when talking to “his people.”
I don’t like that he berates Islamic names either. In his last visit in Detroit, he told people to stop naming children stupid names like Shakeelah and Muhammad.
He’s quoted a number of times saying this stuff.
“Ladies and gentlemen, listen to these people. They are showing you what’s wrong … What part of Africa did this come from? We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans. They don’t know a damned thing about Africa— with names like Shaniqua, Shaligua, Mohammed, and all that crap, and all of them are in jail.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/cosby
Sorry, I’m not “feeling” Bill.
I think he may have been referring to the fact that an African-American named “Muhammad” is likely to have gone to jail since the majority of African-Americans that accept Islam do so in jail
@ Dawud
I understand what you are saying, but the local Baltimore news referred to his message as “controversial”. I don’t see anything wrong with his basic message of hard work and education - some of his statements about names not withstanding. They act as if such a message to blacks is something out of the ordinary
I’ve never had a problem with his sentiments.
Dawud, I did not take his statements as berating Islamic names. I agree, I’m tired of all these ghetto-Arabic names. I fault myself too, because when I was a non-practicing Muslim, I use to name all my friends illegitimate kids with ‘muslim’ names. The hood is full of Khalil Johnsons and Aiesha Jenkins. And they aren’t Muslim, African, or Arab. The people are giving the names bad names.
I prefer for people in the hood to have “ghetto-Arabic names” than to have Anglo-Saxon names. I don’t care much for made up names, but I understand that it is a step, unconscious in most cases, for our people to define something culturally separate from Anglo-Saxon dominate culture.
Some people who name their children with those names happen to be married couple; some live in the hood and some don’t. I know a few married couples, who are Christian that named their children “ghetto-Arabic names.”
I believe in self upliftment too. I’m an admirer of Booker T. Washington. I’m a little suprised about how we have taken to generalizing our own people and how we Muslims are speaking about children.
There is no such thing as an illegitimate child or a bastard child. The parents may have committed an illegitimate act or a bastardly act, but the child is free from that, innocent.
With all of Bill’s criticism, where is his plan to uplift the Black community? Perhaps I have missed it, and one of you can articulate it for me.
I have mixed feelings about Bill Cosby. There is nothing with wrong with trying to motivate young people to be the best in life. However, the way Bill Cosby goes about , he seems so critical that the kid may only learn only his more about criticism than the moral stories behind them.
Some of his speeches reminded of a couple of teachers who would tell their students ” I got mine, you need to get yours”( referring to their jobs and degrees). They’ll be critical of the students, or brag about what they have, but don’t get the message of how they made it to top. It has nothing to do with his aggressiveness of his voice tone/words of his speech. I swear ,I have came across far more aggressive speakers than Bill, but for some odd reason, their speeches didn’t come of as arrogant and the people have gotten something good from it. I once liked Bill’s messages . As of late, it’s becoming a semi-slugfest.
I do think that parts of Cosby’s rhetoric can be condescending. However, the general message that the Black community needs to make a conscious effort to do better is one that I agree with. I work with Muslims from all backgrounds on a daily basis and the theme that continues to pop up is that many other culture have a tradition (at least in this country) of education and excellence. What is wrong with creating, and demanding such a tradition on our own community?
I don’t know about Bill but we could surely use a few Clair Huxtable’s around…
@ Ricky
Yes there are many AA and otherwise that accept Islam in jail. As jail is devoid of most worldly comforts it gives the individual time to reflect on his life and his purpose. Does this negate the sincerity of his conversion. If that is what Cosby is implying I think not. Some of the best people I have met came out of jail you will find them the most devout and sincere because of the genuine experience they had. It is much similar to those who have had near death experiences it pulls the blinders off your eyes and the illusions of life disappear.
I agree with Dawud,I rather having them have them have Africian and Arab names then names giving by there former masters.As one person once said slave are named by there masters free men name themselves.Yes I hope some of these kids understand the meaning of these great names and live up to them.In islam we are told to give our children a good name.Bill Cosby by demeaning the signfiance of these names shows me his dissconnect from from his hertiage.By the way his attacks on Black America are totally one sided if you don;t look at the structoral forces that help create them.That doesn’t mean we should not push for higher educaution and and being business men.
It is funny some of the biggest critics from amongst Bill Cosby, Armstrong Williams, Stanley Crouch .Roy Innis and others when you look at there personal lives are some of the biggest hyprocrites.Yes, none of us are perfect but when you here these voicesof outrage aganist there own people you would think there lives are squeaky clean.Bottom line we need to get work on all fronts cause at the end the day the condtions that our communties face will still be the same.Constructive critism is a must but not doing anything to uplift some these problems off of us is a crime aganist our own selves.
@ rasheed
No need to be defensive. I only mentioned the fact that most converts to Islam come from jail. the rest of what you mentioned had nothing to do with what I said. it is clear that Mr Cosby associates black people having Muslims names with jail.
Ricky
You have some statistics to back that up? *Most* converts to Islam have never been to jail. Yes, many do find Islam there, but it’s a great leap to say that *most* of us found Islam there.
Visit any masjid and do a survey.
@ ummpookie
First of all, I said that most African-American converts do so in jail. I can’t remember where I read it, but it was at a Muslim site. I would be glad to read where you get your statistics to correct me. I have visited mosques before and I have Muslims friends who tell me the same thing: MOST AA Muslims convert in prison. The vast majority of the congregants in the mosques that I have visited had been to jail before. This is not to be condescending, but stating a truth that is apparently uncomfortable to some of you judging by the defensiveness here.
Dawud & Kwame Madden:
…respectively
I don’t necessarily disagree with those statements, but at the same time, both made me think about a few things.
I think that some are so caught up in trying to get away from the “Anglo-Saxon” dominate culture, that we are belittling ourselves in the process instead of giving ourselves more fulfillment and enrichment. What do I mean?
There are so many potentially intelligent black children in the ghettos and in the most over looked of places that it is truly a shame that these notions of being smart is not cool and the likes, actually make a lot of them suppress their inner intellectual selves and promotes the slang and the “I just don’t give a * mentality, as long as I’m cool and you respect me”.
Merely using correct grammar is not cool, it’s “white” to a lot of blacks (even adults). We would readily embrace sounding obtuse than quote on quote, sounding/acting “white”. Why look at it as “white” and not as just a normal means of communication—it’s really not a complicated process, especially considering English is literally our first language, but many say it is “Anglo-Saxon”. Well, if one wishes to speak a different language, do so, but speak it correctly.
People whose first language is their mother tongue, and their second language may be Amharic, and their third is English sometimes speak it better than I have heard some AAs speak it. It’s almost like a chain reaction of negatives pivoting off of each other. How about a chain reaction of positives that do the same without being considered “white”?
Now everything “black” seems to be negative and embraced in spite of its negativity. It’s just not “cool” be smart in school anymore, so many don’t even try. In fact, the worse you do, it seems in many cases, the “cooler” you are. Some one who is diligent and smart in school is looked down on and out casted, called “stuck up” and the likes, especially if they didn’t help you cheat (a negative within a negative).
A young lady who may be virginal or a young man…she/he is looked down on for being that way, for having respect for their bodies and equal respect for their minds. When someone else is doing good and by good means, everyone else is looking down on them instead of aspiring to be like them and get to the same or a better place.
As a result, you have a lot of good kids who go do the wrong paths. How did it get that way?
They (children) are settling for less because WE are settling for less; we are not expecting more from them—we are not commanding it. When I say WE I mean the older people in the black community. If we didn’t accept this type of garbage inside OR outside of our communities, they wouldn’t accept it either.
This brings me to Cosby’s remarks….
A commenter once said to me in regards to Cosby’s remarks:
…and I thought that was very touching, even powerful and motivating…but some people will hear you say that and just laugh in your face and keep doing whatever it was they were doing before, not even giving your words an afterthought. While others would embrace it and take it into their hearts and minds while distributing it in their daily lives.
The same can be said for Cosby’s tough love. Tough love and direct love are both needed because the truth is we have different breeds of people out there, so we need both.
Yes, Cosby’s approach may be a little harsh, but, I think Cosby has enough understanding to know that, perhaps, if these things are not addressed properly and people just let anything fly, as they have been lately, his children may end up in the same dire place/situation or his children’s children.
Perhaps he understand that in the greater scheme of things, we are ultimately responsible for how the future generation perceives itself and it’s history and it’s people. We are merely reflections of our ancestors that can either be a good thing or a bad thing. It’s what WE make it.
Besides, Cosby has done a lot for the black community.
As-Salaamu `Alaykum,
I agree with what you’re saying. I’m just not sure how you got there in regards to my comments that some of us are “unconsciously” taking on these names to move away from the Anglo-Saxon dominant culture.
In no way was I inferring or endorsing ignorance or that talking correct English is somehow talking “white”, which I heard as a kid.
My original point was that Mr. Cosby does make valid points, but I don’t take his comments as constructive. He’s venting. Spending the vast majority of his “discourse” on problems rather than solutions. He has said himself that he’s “feed up.”
We have to build people up. Give analysis and be critical with kindness.
There are so many ahadeeth relating to giving people advise with tenderness (rifq). As a Muslim, I just don’t like the way he’s going about it. Of course, he’s not one. Insha’ALLAH, Bill will be guided to deen al haqq; maybe he’ll take on the name Mohammed.
Insha’ALLAH, this will be my last post on this matter. I don’t want to fillibuster. Plus, I’m buggin on how Obama’s Muslim community liason, who is originally from my hometown, was forced to resign.
Wassalaam
Dawud:
I stated……
Maybe you missed that.
Ricky–maybe it’s the circles you travel in. It might help if you get out more.
You made the assertion– the burden of proof is on you.
Maybe you just need to visit more masjids.
It’s not being defensive, it’s called challenging you on a statement you made passing it off as fact. Fact of the matter is that your friends’ experience cannot be extrapolated to hold true for *most* African American converts at other masjids in your city/area, or in other parts of the country. How large is your sample? If I conduct a poll of 20 African Americans and find that 17 of them went to jail, am I then justified in saying that *most* African Americans are current or ex-offenders? No, I am not.
I am not ashamed in the least that Islam is appealing to many in jail–so there’s nothing to be defensive about. If Islam (or Christianity, for that matter–many folks find Jesus in jail too) offers a person some motivation to try and live better, then I’m all for it. I do in fact know Muslims who have served time in prison and are living upright lives now. That’s something to be proud of.
As for your “source”, sorry “some Muslim site” doesn’t cut it. I don’t care if they are Muslims, if they haven’t done a real scientific survey then their assertion is just as empty as yours.
Just get your facts straight. That’s all we ask.
@ umm pookie
Just FYI, I have traveled around the world
According to several Muslims sites, including in this article, there are 300,000-400,000 CURRENT Muslim inmates in America. There are about 3 million Muslims in the United States. African-Americans make up about 25% of that number according to major Muslim organizations like CAIR. By that count, that means there are an estimated 750,000 African-American Muslims in the United States. That means (not counting EX-convicts) that about 40-50% of African-American Muslims are CURRENTLY in prison - without even counting the ex-cons.
I respectfully stand by my assertion. One of my muslim friends says that you probably see things differently because you are female. Again, if you have some other numbers, I would like to see it for my own information
@ Ricky
Simply asserting the truth about conversion in jail. There is a condescending tone to your assertions and it seems everybody realizes this but you. Check your delivery people read between the lines.
My being female has nothing to do with it. Rasheed seems to disagree with you too and he is presumably male. Is there some reason why a woman wouldn’t have an accurate grasp on the community that she spends time working and worshiping in?
The article that you cited mentions the number–but there is a problem. They don’t cite a source for their estimates. Did they conduct the research themselves? Someone else? What was the methodology used? Did they conduct research at all? Again, it doesn’t matter if they are a “Muslim site”. They made an assertion and we have no idea where it comes from. Does that number include Nation of Islam members, Ahmadiyyah, etc.? Does that number include the very large number of IMMIGRANT-NON-CONVERT Muslims who are/were being detained since 9/11? Doesn’t say. I am also presuming that this number would include IMMIGRANT, NON-CONVERT Muslims who actually committed crimes. I assume that it also includes Muslims who may be converts but are NOT African American. So still, you have no reliable source for your assertions.
Just you and your friends. Doesn’t stand up in a court of law.
@ Ricky
The numbers of Muslims you used are inflated by about double. According to the National Survey of Religious Identification in 2004 there were about 1.5 million Muslims (about the same as the number of Buddists)
The inflated numbers are so widely adopted that they are seen as authentic even though there is no empirical data to support them. This is not limited to Muslims as all religions commonly inflate their membership.
The study can be found here
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/aris_index.htm
They added this note:
In recent years Muslim leaders in the United States have optimistically estimated that there were approximately 6.5 million Muslims in the country (Aly Abuzaakouk, American Muslim Council, 1999). In 1998 a Pakistani newspaper even reported that there were 12 million Muslims in the United States (4.2% of the total population)! After the events of September 11, 2001, many newspaper accounts included an estimate of 8 million American Muslims. This would equate to 3% of the U.S. population, or roughly 1 in every 33 people in the country. No comparable figure has ever been confirmed by independent research similar to the Kosmin or Glenmary studies, or the Gallup, Harris, Pew, Barna polls. In 2004 the National Study of Youth and Religion conducted by the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (sample size: 3,370 teens nationwide) found that less than one half of one percent (0.5%) of American teens were Muslim, a proportion right in line with the adult Muslim population, based on other studies. Tom W. Smith of the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago is a nationally recognized expert in survey research specializing in the study of social change and survey methodology. Smith published “Estimating the Muslim Population in the United States” in 2001. This is probably the most thorough academic study of this topic in recent years. This study concluded: “The best, adjusted, survey-based estimates put the adult Muslim population in 2000 at 0.67 percent or 1,401,000, and the total Muslim population at 1,886,000. Even if high-side estimates based on local surveys, figures from mosques, and ancestry and immigration statistics are given more weight than the survey-based numbers, it is hard to accept estimates that Muslims are greater than 1 percent of the population (2,090,000 adults or 2,814,000 total).”
The same reason that I would not have a grasp on the sisters’ side. We worship very separately. I have little idea of the nuances on the sisters side and sisters know little about the brothers. That is why I told Ricky that. We look dishonest when we try to deny things such as the fact that most of the african american brothers accepted Islam in prison. I have been Muslim for over 25 years and worked in several prison systems and there is no denial of this. Many of these brothers that get out of prison have issues. Now we can continue to ignore
Sameer–
You can only speak for yourself.
Not all communities are the same. In my case, I don’t pray with the brothers, no, but whether through their wives or because I have had the privilege to serve on the board and organize many of the activities in my community for over a decade, I have a good idea of who is a part of the community, brothers and sisters. More often than you might think, I end up knowing about their backgrounds–sometimes quite a bit. It’s my job to do so.
And why is it that you admit that you don’t know much about at least half of your community, i.e. the women, but feel comfortable making generalizations about them (by extension, because something was asserted about African American converts, the entire population of us)–and feeding that to others? If you don’t even know about the sisters in your own community–then how can you be expected to know about the MAJORITY of brothers/converts in communities that you have never even visited?
The assertion still is not backed up by any evidence. Sorry.
You got me on the years, I have been Muslim for going on 19 years only, al hamdulillah. Still. No one is ignoring anything. No one said that significant numbers of people, both male and female (I have worked with Muslim women inmates myself) do not find Islam in prison. That’s great. But that still doesn’t mean that the MAJORITY of African American converts across the country did so. They are two different statements. There is no dishonesty here. I am just asking somebody to back up the statement they are passing off as fact.
Perhaps a little humility would have served Ricky well. In his zest for what appears to be a preconceived opinion based on “his Muslim associates” he has not looked at the article well nor done any research on his own. Let’s start here:
Just FYI, I have traveled around the world
Aside from the statement presuming that those that disagree with you haven’t “traveled the world”…what exactly does that have to do with objective research? Might help with travel channel credentials though.
On a more serious level here is your first incorrect statement.
According to several Muslims sites, including in this article, there are 300,000-400,000 CURRENT Muslim inmates in America.
For starters it is August 2008 right? So how is an article published in 2001 current? Check the url in your browser along with the stat cited for California which cites Cali’s 2001 general prison population. Today that figure is closer to 170,000 in the general prison population. We can’t be sloppy when citing stats especially when we are being rather callous in criticizing someone else.
Secondly the article states that there are (actually were) 5,000 Muslims in the California prison population. So 5,000 out of 156,000 is a little over 3%. Keep in mind that California has the 2nd largest state prison population in the country (behind Texas). Yet in the very next sentence it says that there are 300,000-400,000 Muslims in the U.S. prison system! Wow! That’s alot. But in 2001 there were 1.2 million prisoners in America. Are you telling me that upwards of 30% of all prisoners are Muslim? But only 3% are in California? So the 2nd largest state has less Muslims in its prison than say Nebraska or that bastion of Islamic dawah North Dakota? Someone doesn’t have their stats right?
When you THINK CRITICALLY instead of spending time with chauvanistic statements meant to be dismissive of Women you run into the trap of being sloppy.
This is the part you really want to read
Currently (or technically 2006…which is much better than 2001) Black Men comprise 37.8% of the U.S. prison population. About 5% of all Black Men in the general population have been in prison or jail. 5%! So let us assume for argument sake that ALL of the Black Men who were in prison and are currently in our general population are Muslim. How exactly could that number possibly approach most? Even if the masjid is filled 100% with Black Men how can 51% of them be ex-offenders without you DELIBERATELY making it so? I mean naturally speaking that isn’t possible even in the inner city.
Again I used the statistics not my own “friends” or “Muslims I’ve talked to”. Stats and logic.
Source 1: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/2007/BJS07033.htm
Source 2: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/data/corpop02.csv (excel spreadsheet)
The same reason that I would not have a grasp on the sisters’ side. We worship very separately. I have little idea of the nuances on the sisters side and sisters know little about the brothers. That is why I told Ricky that. We look dishonest when we try to deny things such as the fact that most of the african american brothers accepted Islam in prison. I have been Muslim for over 25 years and worked in several prison systems and there is no denial of this. Many of these brothers that get out of prison have issues. Now we can continue to ignore
You’re off base with all due respect Sameer. Number one to defend Ricky for being chauvanistic is apalling. Umm Pookie is your Muslim sister you know?
Secondly I gave the stats. The proof is on you for example for saying “most” accepted Islam in prison. You need stats…a study. I mean if I did what Ricky did and relied on “my friends” I can combat both of you because I didn’t accept Islam in prison, nor did my best friend, my other most closest friends, elders in the community, people like Keith Ellison, rappers like Mos Def, comedians like Dave Chappelle and others. So your personal experience can be refuted by my personal experience. And mine would be more legit from a sample perspective because your experience is in a prison system. Mine is in the general population. Your whole sample are prisoners! What would you expect the result to be? My sample is more diverse yielding closer to true results.
Secondly Men and Women don’t pray differently. We all pray the same with the exception of a couple of minor physical nuances. Now if we want to talk about psychosocial differences fine. If we want to talk about the different challenges, concerns, ways of reacting to issues between Men and Women fine. But to try to use the fact that a sister may place her hips closer to the ground in sajdah or pray behind a brother in the musallah as a way to buttress Ricky is simply off base. Again with all due respect.
Brother Dash
Salaam alaikum Sameer,
Maybe based on your experience in the prison system has distorted your views of the Black American convert experience. I’d agree that the da’wah in prison is successful. But I know numerous Black American Muslim men who converted in college or through their involvement with campus activism. I know so many Muslim men with degrees and certifications in hand and a wide array of professional skills. I know Muslims converts who come from UVA, Howard, Harvard Law, UC Berkeley, NYU, and Stanford, to speak of a few universities. They may not be as visible as some of the brothers who have schedules that allow them to make all five salat in the masjid, but they do exist.
In no way was I implying that there are NO converts from college. Only that the majority are from the prisons. I know that educated African-American Muslims exist. Come on. Again, I have been Muslim for a very long time and have numerous experiences with African-American Muslims. The brothers you are speaking of are vastly outnumbered
@ Dash
“We all pray the same with the exception of a couple of minor physical nuances.”
What is this?
Names do matter. If you are African American Muslim and you have changed your name to Usamah Al Thahabi for example, then you are suffering from an identity crisis. There is no such thing as Islamic names, they are arabic names that existed before Islam.
ASA<
I’m gonna have to lean toward Umm Pookie and others.. I don’t see this massive AAM conversion from jail. I know plenty that do. I did work for MAS, MPAC and the MAFF for some time in addition to Masjid Muahmmed and did some work for Al Islam on the SE side of DC where most of th ex con muslims attend. Al-islam is the only masjid in the area were lots of ex-cons attend. Oh, yeah and the 2 Salafi masjids in the area have a good deal of ex-cons but thats 3 masjids very smalls masjids in the DC Merto area compared to 30+ masjids, all with decent populations of AA’s.
Ricky’s numbers just seem real infalted to me. Heck, I only know 2 sisters who married brothers with prison records and 1 of those converted in jail while the other did so before getting convicted. I use to help with the iftars and the Eid celebrations for DC jails for the men and the woman and I can still honestly say that based on my old area (DC/VA/ MD) that , more AA converted weren’t ex-cons. Plenty might have converted for spouses (woman) or a good deal of the men coverted in college because Howard U, Maryland U, George Mason, and VA tech have large very active MSA’s.
However, I just don’t see any real strong research to back the assumtion that most AA’s convert in jail. Maybe, I would agree that most AA’s are converts ( and this is slowly changing) so maybe at one ime or another more of he men might have had some run in with the law but that doesn’t mean they converted IN JAIL.
As far as names go I would like to see Muslims Americans keep thier names as long as it means something good. Your parents took time to think about those names they gave you regaurdless if they might be based in Anglo culture. They might be a name of a past ancester who dod good things etc.. Changing your name to a Arabic name doesn’t really make it any better. Heck, they were slavers to and didn’t even abolish slavery until the mid 19’s by force so the arguement that you want to ge rid of your slave name is kind of mute. Our parents weren’t thinking of slavery when they gave us a name (at leastt with our 1st names). I’d like to think most put in a great deal of time thinking of a name to give us and we should have some respect for that. Now if you want to change your name because it sounds right horrid (I.E. Ruby, Homer, Sue Ann, Tabatha, etc.) thats another thing all together. People over time started calling me a Arabic name becuase they just refused to call me Sherri’ and felt it manditory to “arabize” the name and made it Sherifah but i never changed my name and I don’t that we should be made to feel our names are inferior and some how lesser than any African or Arabic names.
What is this?
What is what? The nuances? Like how sisters don’t raise their hips as high in the air as brothers do in sajdah? I mean there are a couple of others like sisters not calling the adhan for a mixed prayer (I believe they can do so for a sisters only jamaat however). When they lead other sisters in prayer the Imama stands in the first row only slightly ahead of the others I believe. There may be some madhab differences to that. I haven’t studied all of the specific differences but as you can see they are not major. You still start with Allahu Akbar, you pray Fatiha, an extra sura you go into ruku, qiyaam, sujood, jalsah, etc. You close out with your salaams. There is no gender specific kind of salat and the obligation for the 5 daily prayers is for both genders. There is dispensation during her menstrual cycle but other than that it’s the same.
Ricky you are a funny dude for sure. I think you are out of touch and you have the view of an outsider.
In the 70’s many AA accepted Islam in prison but in the 80’s and 90’s there was a strong outreach in high schools and colleges sponored by many groups.
The Saudis, Iranians, Sudanese, Desi, Orthodox, Halafis, Salafis, Libyans, NOI, NOI(a), NOI(b), WMD, Issa, and many others strongly proselytized in the community and on college campuses.
Many of my friends are college graduates. I think you are relying heavily on an outdated sterotype.
Salaam
I had a whole post debunking Ricky’s “stats” that apparently got deleted. Since it was fairly long, and I don’t feel like typing all of that again, I’ll just be quick and to the point.
First from a methodology point of view his post is problematic in that:
1. The article he used was published in 2001 so he isn’t using “current” statistics like he said.
2. The article doesn’t provide a source for its “experts”.
Secondly the stats are wrong anyway.
1. If there are 5,000 Muslims in the California prison population as the article states and there are 156,000 total inmates then that means 3.2% are Muslim. Okay so how then can you say in the next sentence that there are nationally 300,000 to 400,000 Muslims in prison out of 1.2 million (at the time) in the general prison population? That’s a whopping 30% Muslim population? Huh? California has the 2nd or 3rd largest prison population (depending on the year you use) with less than 5% being Muslim yet somehow the rest of the country is at 30%? Bad stats to quote.
2. There has never been a comprehensive study on the number of Muslims in the United States let alone in prison. And you’d have to define what Muslim is. Five percenters, NOI are they included? Many inmates affiliated with these two groups would say that they were Muslims though according to their stated tenets they would not be.
Making sweeping statements based on one’s personal experience is poor research at best. It’s not even research it’s a feeling. It’s an impression. It’s also not scientific. Allegorically yes many people embrace spirituality period in prison or in rehab centers. It’s the first time that they really can be “alone” with themselves and contemplate. It’s actually conducive to thinking about God believe it or not. So it’s not surprising that you have people who embrace Islam in prison. But to say that “most” African American converts are ex-offenders is simply baseless and the onus is on the one who makes that statement by the way. Make a claim…back it up. And when Ricky tried to his stats were wrong.
By the way here is the source for prison statistics: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/correct.htm
-Brother Dash
@ Dash
The reason I asked about your statements regarding the prayer is because I recognize that the source is from the “fiqh” of Hanafi madhab–and they are wrong about this issue.
There is no narration, anywhere, stating that women are to do anything different than the men in the prayer i.e. lower their hips. Yet they have their women do this.
There are authentic texts where Aisha and Umm Salamah (radiyyallaah anhum) both led groups of women. When a sister leads the Salaah in a women’s only jam’aat, she stands in the middle of the first rank, not in front–not even a little. Again you will find the Hanafis doing this, including with the men, if two of them pray together.
They also have in their books of “fiqh” that women to pray with their hands across their chests—which is correct; while the men pray with their hand below their navels—which again is not supported by any authentic texts(s).
Women can not call the Adhan:
Umm Waraqah, the daughter of Abdullaah bin al Harith said, “The Messenger of Allah (Salla Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) used to visit her at her home. He appointed a mu’adhdhin to call adhan for her and he commanded her to lead her ahla-dar (individuals of her home) in prayer.” Abdul al Rhman said, “I saw that her mu’adhdhin was an old man”. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Volume 1, hadith No. 592)
In the Shariah, we understand that anything pertaining to acts of worship is haraam, unless there is an authentic text that allows it; while in the dunyawi affairs, everything is Halal, unless there’s an authentic text that forbids it.
Generally speaking, no Muslim is permitted to oppose any authentic texts and follow the statements of any man.
Why do Hanafis place their hands down so low… below the navel!???
Answered by Shaykh Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf Mangera
Question:
Why do Hanafis place their hands down so low… below the navel!???
Answer:
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious Most Merciful.
It is sunna for men to place the hands beneath the navel in prayer.
This is the opinion of the Hanafi school in this regard and also the Hanbali school [as mentioned in Buhuti�s Kashshaf al-Qina` and other major works].
There are a number of hadiths which substantiates this. There are also other hadiths on this issue which express others ways of holding the hands However, the hadith on placing the hands beneath the navel have been judged to be least problematic and most superior.
The following excerpts will provide more insight into the issue.
[Excerpted from "Chapter 2: The Position of the Hands in Prayer" from the third edition of "Fiqh al-Imam"published by White Thread Press http://www.wtpress.com
Evidence of the Hanafis
�Ali (Allah be pleased with him) states,
To place one palm over the other beneath the navel, is from the sunna of prayer (Bayhaqi 312 u, Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba 1:391).
It is a known fact that whenever a Companion utters the words �It is from the Sunna� regarding any action, it means it is something acquired from the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) himself.
Hence, �Ali (Allah be pleased with him) could have only reported this practise as sunna after observing the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) do it.
The problem with this narration is that it contains �Abd al-Rahman ibn Ishaq in its chain who has been classified as weak. The Hanafis have not fully relied on this narration as a basis for their opinion, but since there are many other narrations which reinforce it, it could still stand as supplementary evidence.
Wa�il ibn Hujr (Allah be pleased with him) narrates,
�I saw the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) placing his right hand upon the left one below his navel in prayer� (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, Athar al-Sunan 90).
This is the third version of Wa�il ibn Hujr�s narration that was mentioned at the beginning of the chapter containing the words �below the navel�.
Some Hanafi scholars have stated that this version cannot be used as conclusive evidence for their opinion, because the words �below his navel� are only to be found in some editions of Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, and not in them all. This is aside from the fact that, as we mentioned, it has an inconsistent text.
However, it is stated in Fath al-Mulhim that �Allama Qasim ibn Qutlubgah has judged this version to be of sound transmission. �Allama Muhammad Abu �l-Tayyib al-Madani writes in his commentary on Sunan al-Tirmidhi that this narration has a strong chain, and Shaykh �Abid Sindhi states, �Its narrators are trustworthy.� Also, a number of scholars have verified that the addition, �below the navel� is to be found in many manuscripts of Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba, even if it is not found in the recently published editions [see Athar al-sunan 148].
Therefore, despite the problematic nature Wa�il ibn Hujr�s narration, this version of it cannot be rendered totally unacceptable, since there are many other reliable reports that strengthen it.
3. Hajjaj ibn al-Hasan relates:
Either I heard Abu Mijlaz saying it or I inquired from him, �How should one position his hands [during prayer]?� He replied, �He should place the inner portion of his right hand upon the back of the left one beneath the navel� (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba 1:390).
The transmission of this hadith is sound [hasan], as �Allama Mardini (also known as Ibn al-Turkumani) states in his book al-Jawhar al-naqi.
Wassalam
Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf
Faraz: It is also noteworthy that holding the hands below the navel is the soundest transmission about Imam Ahmad�s opinion and is relied upon in his school. The Ummah of the Beloved of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) produced few individuals greater in knowledge of the sunna than Imam Ahmad (Allah have mercy on him), and even fewer as devoted to it.
This stero type of most BAmuslims converted in prision reminds of how people still believe most of us who converted came out of the Nation of Kufr meaning theNation of Islam.Most people who have converted among BA muslims in the last 25 yrs.are aware of this group and may have had some limited contact.
@ Abdullaah
This is not the place to debate this topic, but you put this false speech out there so it must be addressed so no one can be mislead by it. This is a vivid example of the evil of blindly following madhabs; because people follow them even when they oppose authentic texts.
The narration of Ali Abi Taalib (radiyyallaahu an)
You quoted: “The problem with this narration is that it contains �Abd al-Rahman ibn Ishaq in its chain who has been classified as weak. The Hanafis have not fully relied on this narration as a basis for their opinion, but since there are many other narrations which reinforce it, it could still stand as supplementary evidence.”
The hadith claiming that Ali Abi Taalib (radiyyallaahu) as the narrator, contains in the isnaad Abdur Rahman ibn Ishaaq al Koofi, who is known to ALL THE SCHOLARS OF HADITH as a known liar and fabricator of hadith, so his narrations are soundly rejected by the imams from Ahlus Sunnah. The Hanafis can not use him as a proof, not even to support other weak ahadith. Al Albani (rahimahullaah) exposed this to the English speaking Muslims in his book “The Prophet’s Prayer Described”:
1. Abu Daawood said, “I heard Ahmad ibn Hanbal declaring `Abd ar-Rahmaan ibn Ishaaq al-Koofi da`eef (weak).” [This is why Imaam Ahmad did not accept this hadeeth of his, for his son `Abdullaah said, "I saw that when praying, my father placed his hands, one on the other, above the navel."]
2. Nawawi said in Majmoo` (3/313), and also in Sharh Saheeh Muslim and elsewhere, “They (the scholars of hadeeth) agree in declaring this hadeeth weak, because it is a narration of `Abd ar-Rahmaan ibn Ishaaq al-Waasiti, who is a da`eef (weak) narrator, as agreed upon by the Imaams of Jarh and Ta`deel (Authentication and Disparagement of reporters).”
3. Zayla`i said in Nasb ar-Raayah (1/314), “Baihaqi said in al-Ma`rifah: `Its isnaad is not firm, for it is a unique narration of `Abd ar-Rahmaan ibn Ishaaq al-Waasiti, who is matrook (abandoned)’.”
4. Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari (2/186), “It is a weak hadeeth.”
Shaykh Badiuddeen Al Sindhi (rahimahullaah) was a great Muhaddith from Pakistan, who Albani himself said he never saw the likes of him, proved that the Deobandi grave worshippers tampered with the Musannaf of Ibn Abee Shaybah by adding the words “below the navel”. He noted that if you look at the original manuscript of the Ibn Abee Shaybah’s work, YOU WILL NOT FIND THE WORDS BELOW THE NAVEL!!
Decades ago Shaykh As Sindhi went on to challenged all the Hanifis on the earth to bring one single authentic narration that “clearly states that the Prophet (salallaahu alayhi wa salam) places his hands below the navel while praying, upon the condition that the hadith, with its full chain of narration, is to be found in a recognized book of hadith. If such a challenge is met a thousand rupees reward shall be awarded—but the Hanafi will NEVER be able to meet this challenge”.
He went on to say, “ As for the narration mentioned in Ibn Abee Shaybah, that the prophet placed his hands below the navel, then this narration does not even have a basis for it’s existence. Alhamdulillaah, we have both the original manuscript and the printed version of this book, but neither of them has this narration recorded in it. So the liars have been caught out.”
Shaykh As Sindhi finished saying, “It should be known that the leader of the Hanafis, Anwar Shah Kashmiri in Faidh Al Baari Sharh Saheeh Al Bukhari (2/226) confirms what is stated above when he researched many copies but in none of them could he find this narration of placing the hands below the navel”.
He then listed detailed statements (I’ll list them if you want) by the major Hanafi scholars that the hands are to be placed across the chest, the likes of
Badruddeen Al Ainee
Allamaah inb al Ajmee
Imam Zailee al Hanafi
Abdul Hayy al Lucknowee al Hanafi
Shaykh Ibn Humaam
Allamaah In Najeem al Hanafi
Ibn Ameerul Haaj
Mulla Haddad Jouwnpooree
All of these Hanafi scholars agree that the hadith supposedly narrated on the authority of Ali Abi Taalib can not be taken, even in support of other narrations.
It is upon the Hanafis to follow Imam Abu Hanifah in his statement, “when an authentic narration is presented then this is my madhab”, and stand in qiyaam with your hands across your chest. After all, the Messenger of Allaah (salallaahu alayhi wa salam said,
“All of the Messengers prayed with their ,hands across their chest…”
Who from the Hanafis is going to stand before Allaah with this tremendous weight on his shoulders?
A Salaamu Alaikum,
Well this isn’t the forum to debate how to pray especially when we can’t have this discussion without first dealing with a fundamental understanding of usul-u-fiqh. My information doesn’t comes specifically from the Hanafi madhab by the way. I’m not even Hanafi. But the discussion is silly anyway. There are 16 rukn of salat and whether your hands are below your navel or your hips are high or low is not one of them. It doesn’t affect the validity of the prayer. So why Muslims get all in a tizzy is due to ignorace of usul and of fiqh itself.
There is NO HADITH where the messenger, sallahu alayhi wa salaam, tells you how to pray. It all comes from reports of sahaba that watched him. Some of these sahaba were sent off to other lands before the Prophet, sallahu alayi wa salaam, completed his mission. They left with the information they had at the time. This is one reason for some subtle differences. As far as “authentic” reports again it shows ignorance of the usul. It’s not all about hadiths.
For example the position of Imam Malik and the majority of his students was for one to pray with your hands at your sides. Why? Well if you know anything about the Maliki madhab then you know that unlike the other three there is significant emphasis placed on the practice of the sahaba of Madina. In Madina they prayed with their hands at their sides because that is how they say they observed the messenger praying. In the absence of an explicit hadith from the messenger (and there is none) saying no do it this way then in the methodology you are to go with the practice of the sahaba. Now the other madahab don’t take that position. It’s a difference in methodology.
But even if we take Daud’s approach, which is generally the ‘Salafi’ approach, we run into another issue. What if this ‘authentic’ hadith that Daud speaks of was narrated by someone who didn’t actually pray that way? What do you do when the narrator says “I saw the Messenger pray this way” and it is an “authentic” hadith (I put it in quotes because we misuse the term authentic but I don’t want to digress) but the narrator NEVER PRAYED THAT WAY? What do you do? Well if you follow fiqh then it is easier. If you don’t then you are in a logical quandry.
So this is why you have differences. It’s not all about what you think you are reading in Bukhari and Muslim (both of whom followed madhabs by the way and did not go with their own interpretation of their very own hadith collections). It’s alot more nuanced and frankly this is one of the issues that I have with how so-called “true” Islam was introduced to America and Black America in particular.
Minor correction…on the issue of praying with your hands at your sides there is actually hadith evidence, in addition to the practice of the Salaf of Madina. You will find evidence in Bukhari (I forget the narrator) where the transmitter mentions how it was so cold one night in Madina that you could hear people’s hands (and he used the words hands) clapping against the sides of their thighs while they were in qiyaam. Not possible if you have your hands across your chest. The 2nd is a report from Aisha in Tirmidhi where she explicitly states that the Prophet, sallahu alayhi wa salaam, prayed with his hands at his sides. There is more evidence. I can dig it up for you if you like but often times I find that in these discussions which really have more to do with someone defending a position rather than trying to learn, share and grow I find it to be fruitless.
I don’t get my kicks from religious debates so if the interest is in learning cool…if it’s in debating there are many people on the internet who spend their time doing this and would make for much better entertainment than I.
Brother Dash
Daud, dude, first you start off with “The reason I asked about your statements regarding the prayer”, and then you say “This is not the place to debate this topic”.
What an ultimate act of trollery.
Let me guess, you’re some sort of Wahhabi/Salafi or some such.
Mate, according to you everything is bida, so first of all, since the prophet or any of his companions didn’t speak English, maybe you should stop doing that. They didn’t use computers, or comment on blogs, or even used electricity. Heck, I’m pretty sure they didn’t use bricks, wood, motorcars etc etc etc.
Since the Salafi are so authentic on everything, why don’t you move to Saudi Arabia, and see just how well things work over there, see the “Islaam is free from ethnocentricity” in action. Saudi Arabia, a country so free from ethnocentricity, the country is named after the ruling clan. That’s pretty free from ego right? A country with so much money pouring into the ruling class, they don’t know what to do with their money. Heck, they’d gold plate their nuts if they could. Meanwhile, right across the Arabian sea, you have extremes of poverty and starvation.
Start questioning the guys that drip feed you your information.